3.2 performance
01-15-2017, 10:28 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
Great news! Where can we get the injectors? I saw the adaptor needed.
Also, any reason this wouldn't work for a 3.4?
Thanks!
Also, any reason this wouldn't work for a 3.4?
Thanks!
01-15-2017, 10:40 PM
#62
Addict
Here's a song Rick James wrote about my cabriolet:
01-15-2017, 11:14 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Thanks! Did some more research. Appears that unless you have a chip to take advantage of the new high flow injectors the car will run rich? Does that sound right?
I was looking get some more performance out of my setup and this looked like an easy and cheap upgrade.
I was looking get some more performance out of my setup and this looked like an easy and cheap upgrade.
01-15-2017, 11:17 PM
#65
Addict
Would be interesting to start playing with AFR and maybe some injectors that will put out more fuel. I know everyone has a different theory about the engine liking it lean or liking it fat....wish I had a pile of different injectors and the time and energy to play.
....and ya, just texted Gonzo and he does have more and getting more isn't a problem. This wasn't intended to be a commercial for him.....but what the heck.
01-16-2017, 03:03 AM
#66
The beauty of these injectors is that you really don't have to flog it to enjoy it. Even down at 1200rpm with a slight press on the throttle, you can feel the torque come on instantly with no hesitation.
01-16-2017, 09:17 AM
#67
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So can you share the part numbers for both the injectors and the connection adapters?
My '89 3.2 Targa is out in the Bay Area right now, and when I finally finish my consulting assignment out there, it comes back to TX for a major rebuild. Would like to take advantage of this injector setup. I have the SW chip and a cat bypass installed on the car right now. I know it needs a new fuel pressure regulator and have the parts. Just waiting to get my Targa back to TX so I can do the work! Thanks for the GREAT info and very nice job!!
Toby
My '89 3.2 Targa is out in the Bay Area right now, and when I finally finish my consulting assignment out there, it comes back to TX for a major rebuild. Would like to take advantage of this injector setup. I have the SW chip and a cat bypass installed on the car right now. I know it needs a new fuel pressure regulator and have the parts. Just waiting to get my Targa back to TX so I can do the work! Thanks for the GREAT info and very nice job!!
Toby
01-16-2017, 09:43 AM
#68
Got a nice path cleared on the side of the house so I could take the car out. Tapped the key and she fired right back up, like instantly. Car was still cold as I wound my way out of the neighborhood and I was thinking I was going to be disappointed at first. Nope, she's awesome. Smother as silk at low RPM all the way up. Off idle its a different car. It never ran this nice. This would be perfect for a street car or daily driver. Wife will approve, no question.
The real testing began as I got on the freeway. The on-ramp has always been my barometer and this time she did OK. Zero to about 115 before hitting the freeway. It's long and mostly downhill, but I think that is a tad better than usual. I got off a couple exits down with the car now good and warm and up the canyon I went. Nice and smooth, not at all the same raspy firecracker that usually pushes me up that hill. Went through the tunnels and turned around a couple miles up pulling off on a turnout. Happy, but thinking there has got to be more. Yep,....
On the way up I couldn't help but wonder what number setting my Multi-Board was set at. My chip has multiple programs on it. For arguments sake lets call them "stock", 91 octane, 92 octane, and 93 octane, plus a few other settings.
The switch was set at one, where Bisi had left it after the last dyno run. I switched it to "3" or 93 octane. OMG did I unleash the hounds of hell!!! It's a firecracker. The throttle response high up in the RPM's is lightning fast. My chip cuts fuel well beyond 7,000 on my tach and it's strong all the way. Not a single flat spot all the way up. Ya, I'm running hot fuel, but I've also had the same plugs for several years and could use a valve adjustment. All I know is that this was well worth the $100 entry fee. 
Can''t wait to push the car on hot tires. Today all I was really able to do was on-ramp testing. Second on-ramp was a 270 degree right-hand turn that has a long second gear climb. Car was flawless. Freeway entry speed was right at 120 MPH. Could not have handled more.
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You....
The real testing began as I got on the freeway. The on-ramp has always been my barometer and this time she did OK. Zero to about 115 before hitting the freeway. It's long and mostly downhill, but I think that is a tad better than usual. I got off a couple exits down with the car now good and warm and up the canyon I went. Nice and smooth, not at all the same raspy firecracker that usually pushes me up that hill. Went through the tunnels and turned around a couple miles up pulling off on a turnout. Happy, but thinking there has got to be more. Yep,....
On the way up I couldn't help but wonder what number setting my Multi-Board was set at. My chip has multiple programs on it. For arguments sake lets call them "stock", 91 octane, 92 octane, and 93 octane, plus a few other settings.
The switch was set at one, where Bisi had left it after the last dyno run. I switched it to "3" or 93 octane. OMG did I unleash the hounds of hell!!! It's a firecracker. The throttle response high up in the RPM's is lightning fast. My chip cuts fuel well beyond 7,000 on my tach and it's strong all the way. Not a single flat spot all the way up. Ya, I'm running hot fuel, but I've also had the same plugs for several years and could use a valve adjustment. All I know is that this was well worth the $100 entry fee. Can''t wait to push the car on hot tires. Today all I was really able to do was on-ramp testing. Second on-ramp was a 270 degree right-hand turn that has a long second gear climb. Car was flawless. Freeway entry speed was right at 120 MPH. Could not have handled more.
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You....
Awesome! Thanks for the writeup, definitely doing this!
BTW - what's hanging from your exhaust?!
01-16-2017, 10:16 AM
#69
Addict
Toby, it's the Bosch fuel injector that ends in 784.
01-16-2017, 10:59 AM
#70
Couldn't you just use Bosch 0-280-155-703? Same injector with the EV1 connector.
01-16-2017, 02:21 PM
#71
I haddah Google dat
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The interesting bit is when you try to introduce changed parameters, such as a lean condition or rich condition. In his book, "Bosch Fuel Injection and Engine Management", the author Charles E. Probst describes a "lean stop" test. You open the oil cap and introduce a huge vacuum leak. The system will adjust by grounding the injectors more times per second, thus opening the valves more, and richening the mixture. It will do the reverse if you pinch off the fuel return line at the fuel pressure regulator, or disconnect the vacuum line going to it, thus richening the mixture.
So, what is meant by "adjusting the AFR"? That refers to re-centering the mixture to a baseline in order to allow the idle control valve (ICV) to operate within it's range at idle, and to maintain 1.0 lambda. It is thought by some that the system "prefers" a slightly rich mixture of 1.02 or 1.04 because the number of times that the injectors can fire per second is finite. You do this adjustment with the O2 sensor disconnected, and thus in "open loop". If you hook the O2 sensor back up again, you'll notice that the DME takes over, and no matter how much adjusting you do, the mixture does not change. In fact, you can turn the AFR screw until it falls out and causes a large vacuum leak. The system will keep compensating.
So what happens when you change fuel injectors? I suspect that you'll need a new chip to re-map the DME/ O2 sensor/ fuel injector/ fuel pump combo.
If a rich mixute is all you want, just disconnect the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator, and you'll have way more fuel than you need. But be sure to disconnect the O2 sensor too, that way you can run on the "limp home" mode, or a pre-programmed fuel map that uses cht, ambient temp, rpm data only, and not afr.
01-16-2017, 02:56 PM
#72
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What a great read! The 911 community is rockin this month! 
__________________
Porsche Performance Specialist
John@Fabspeed.com
215-618-9796
Fabspeed Motorsport USA
155 Commerce Drive Fort Washington, PA 19034
www.Fabspeed.com
Porsche Performance Specialist
John@Fabspeed.com
215-618-9796
Fabspeed Motorsport USA
155 Commerce Drive Fort Washington, PA 19034
www.Fabspeed.com
01-16-2017, 03:22 PM
#73
If you hook up a wideband O2 with an AFM such as the LM-1 by Innovate, with the stock O2 sensor functioning and healthy, you'll see that after the oxygen sensor warms up, the car will maintain an AFR of .98 to 1.02. Depending on the year of the car, year of the AFM and chip, this may fluctuate as much as .96 to 1.04. At least that is what I noticed when I swapped out the spare AFM and spare DME and then re-checked. You'll also notice that under load while driving, the mixute changes, and when you lift off the gas, fuel flow is shut off completely for several seconds. Under WOT and heavy load, the mixture is really rich as the system goes into batch fire mode.
The interesting bit is when you try to introduce changed parameters, such as a lean condition or rich condition. In his book, "Bosch Fuel Injection and Engine Management", the author Charles E. Probst describes a "lean stop" test. You open the oil cap and introduce a huge vacuum leak. The system will adjust by grounding the injectors more times per second, thus opening the valves more, and richening the mixture. It will do the reverse if you pinch off the fuel return line at the fuel pressure regulator, or disconnect the vacuum line going to it, thus richening the mixture.
So, what is meant by "adjusting the AFR"? That refers to re-centering the mixture to a baseline in order to allow the idle control valve (ICV) to operate within it's range at idle, and to maintain 1.0 lambda. It is thought by some that the system "prefers" a slightly rich mixture of 1.02 or 1.04 because the number of times that the injectors can fire per second is finite. You do this adjustment with the O2 sensor disconnected, and thus in "open loop". If you hook the O2 sensor back up again, you'll notice that the DME takes over, and no matter how much adjusting you do, the mixture does not change. In fact, you can turn the AFR screw until it falls out and causes a large vacuum leak. The system will keep compensating.
So what happens when you change fuel injectors? I suspect that you'll need a new chip to re-map the DME/ O2 sensor/ fuel injector/ fuel pump combo.
If a rich mixute is all you want, just disconnect the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator, and you'll have way more fuel than you need. But be sure to disconnect the O2 sensor too, that way you can run on the "limp home" mode, or a pre-programmed fuel map that uses cht, ambient temp, rpm data only, and not afr.
The interesting bit is when you try to introduce changed parameters, such as a lean condition or rich condition. In his book, "Bosch Fuel Injection and Engine Management", the author Charles E. Probst describes a "lean stop" test. You open the oil cap and introduce a huge vacuum leak. The system will adjust by grounding the injectors more times per second, thus opening the valves more, and richening the mixture. It will do the reverse if you pinch off the fuel return line at the fuel pressure regulator, or disconnect the vacuum line going to it, thus richening the mixture.
So, what is meant by "adjusting the AFR"? That refers to re-centering the mixture to a baseline in order to allow the idle control valve (ICV) to operate within it's range at idle, and to maintain 1.0 lambda. It is thought by some that the system "prefers" a slightly rich mixture of 1.02 or 1.04 because the number of times that the injectors can fire per second is finite. You do this adjustment with the O2 sensor disconnected, and thus in "open loop". If you hook the O2 sensor back up again, you'll notice that the DME takes over, and no matter how much adjusting you do, the mixture does not change. In fact, you can turn the AFR screw until it falls out and causes a large vacuum leak. The system will keep compensating.
So what happens when you change fuel injectors? I suspect that you'll need a new chip to re-map the DME/ O2 sensor/ fuel injector/ fuel pump combo.
If a rich mixute is all you want, just disconnect the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator, and you'll have way more fuel than you need. But be sure to disconnect the O2 sensor too, that way you can run on the "limp home" mode, or a pre-programmed fuel map that uses cht, ambient temp, rpm data only, and not afr.
Regardless of the "amount" of fuel though, wouldn't the newer injectors spray pattern provide a more efficient combustion regardless of any change in lambda? I don't think the goal of the injector swap is to get more fuel, I think the goal is to make use of modern injector technology. Based on what you have stated, it seems to me that the DME and O2 sensor would adjust to maintain lambda (desired) so that the benefit of the newer injectors is the result of spray pattern, not the amount of fuel injected. Or am I missing something?
01-16-2017, 03:34 PM
#74
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Any suggestions for sourcing new Bosch 0-280-155-784 injectors?? Thanks!
Toby
Toby
01-16-2017, 03:37 PM
#75
I haddah Google dat
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I really don't know, but I suspect you'd have to change cam and valve timing, position of the injector and spark plug, and also some of the port shapes to really "feel" anything different happening. Just changing the injectors only PROBABLY isn't going to change much. But I think we'd need to compare brand new injectors side by side to really be intelligent about this subject.
Take a look at this video. If you have malfunctioning or leaking injectors, then any new injector will feel like magic. But two functioning injectors, both pulsed into the intake manifold in the same position, using the same timing, just different pulse volume possibly and possibly a different fan shape --- hmmm.....
Take a look at this video. If you have malfunctioning or leaking injectors, then any new injector will feel like magic. But two functioning injectors, both pulsed into the intake manifold in the same position, using the same timing, just different pulse volume possibly and possibly a different fan shape --- hmmm.....