Please help me understand the 3.2 market
08-18-2016, 07:43 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Some fact about 3,2 in Europe
When I was in search for a 3,2 I do not payd attention to the G50 gearbox, but to a 930-20 model
with the 231 Hp engine with high compression rate and without cat
this is for many enthusiastic here in Germany more important than a G 50 and 217 cat engine
while my car is not a garage queen I can enjoy it very frequently and not think about valuation or so
When I was in search for a 3,2 I do not payd attention to the G50 gearbox, but to a 930-20 model
with the 231 Hp engine with high compression rate and without cat
this is for many enthusiastic here in Germany more important than a G 50 and 217 cat engine
while my car is not a garage queen I can enjoy it very frequently and not think about valuation or so
08-18-2016, 10:50 AM
#32
Intermediate
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My issue has been about the 'spread' in prices between a G50 car and an earlier 3.2. It definitely is a more modern transmission but should I really pay $20K more for a comparable mileage and condition car? That premium wipes out a lot of future appreciation when you take maintenance into account. The current market is showing asking prices for high mileage rebuilt engine cars at a significant premium just because they are G50 and that seems crazy to me. Again to me, a lower mileage 85 under $40K makes a lot more sense than a high mileage 87 in the low $40's or a comparable low mileage G car in the $50's. Of course as I mentioned earlier 'asking prices' are completely out of whack considering current demand and maybe I'm a value guy.
08-18-2016, 01:14 PM
#33
No, paying $20k more is ludicrous.
If you can operate a clutch, you can drive a 915. Period. Sure, it might take a minute to adjust to the heavier pedal and looser throw, but it's just a gearbox, not some arcane medieval abacus contraption that people can't operate without an long apprenticeship and flight training. The internet anti-hype surrounding the 915 borders on ludicrous. I don't have to pause between gears when shifting my 80,000 mile 915 gearbox. I just shift. I can also shift into 1st while rolling to a stop. Unless a pre-G50 tranny is defective or badly in need or service, anyone can drive it.
I will need synchros soon, but a correctly adjusted and serviced 915 is a perfectly good gearbox. It was in production for the better part of 2 decades. It is not defective. It was not recalled. It was not subject to lemon laws. Contrary to internet folklore, remarkably, it actually does shifts the gears. Go figure! Are you going to be shifting with lighting precision where every 1/10 second counts? No, you are not. If you were, you wouldn't be looking at a 30 year old car in the first place, and you'd be driving a modern car with triple the horsepower and PDK, like the pros. If you get a 915 and it's worn out or needing adjustment, just get that fixed. Reliability of the G50 vs 915? The bottom line is that if either gearbox needs service, you're looking at thousands to get it fixed.
Here is a premise worth considering. Some buyers say they are used to a modern Honda gearbox, and that's why they prefer to find a G50. I'll suggest that the entire point of getting an air cooled 911 (and paying top dollar for the privilege) is to have a vintage "leather goggles" driving experience. No power steering. Suspension firmness opposite of "floaty sofa". Mechanical clutch. No nanny assist or stereo or DVD player or Navigation. An exhaust rumble. Even an oil dipstick! The very point of buying an old 911 is that it's nothing like your modern convenient Honda, and that it's different. In that regard, a 915 gearbox is more authentically vintage than a G50 anyway. The guy that wants a modern gearbox probably would not be happy in a 30 year old car in the first place, and might prefer a 997, right?
In general, there is too much "Road & Track" data specification analysis/paralysis here, and not enough test driving. How large is your search radius? You might want to increase it to 2-3 hours. Once you drive these cars, you will see the differences are trivial for road driving. You say that you have been shopping for a couple of years. Shopping for cars is a fun journey, but to pull the trigger, the first step is to forget about the G50 vs. 915 debate. Comparing weight of an SC and 3.2 is also very academic. For 99% of your driving, the differences are moot. It seems CIS vs. Motronic is the most practical factor that may influence your search parameters.
After you decide on '78-'89 or just '84-'89, shopping for your car is not like ticking off a "build sheet" for a new $150k car you are ordering from the factory. You are limited by real world constraints of what is available and crosses your path, even if you plan to budget $1000 for each car you jump on a plane to visit. Make it your goal to physically view 5 cars soon. With that, you will get a better sense of what is out there, because when the right car comes around, you are not going to have time to dilly dally and think about it. It will be sold from right under you. You need to get to a place where you know the market, the basic range of condition of cars out there, and be ready with a stack of cash.
As many others have already said, the last word in this discussion is to buy your SC or 3.2 in the right condition and history, from the right owner, within your search radius, at a price you're comfortable with.
If you can operate a clutch, you can drive a 915. Period. Sure, it might take a minute to adjust to the heavier pedal and looser throw, but it's just a gearbox, not some arcane medieval abacus contraption that people can't operate without an long apprenticeship and flight training. The internet anti-hype surrounding the 915 borders on ludicrous. I don't have to pause between gears when shifting my 80,000 mile 915 gearbox. I just shift. I can also shift into 1st while rolling to a stop. Unless a pre-G50 tranny is defective or badly in need or service, anyone can drive it.
I will need synchros soon, but a correctly adjusted and serviced 915 is a perfectly good gearbox. It was in production for the better part of 2 decades. It is not defective. It was not recalled. It was not subject to lemon laws. Contrary to internet folklore, remarkably, it actually does shifts the gears. Go figure! Are you going to be shifting with lighting precision where every 1/10 second counts? No, you are not. If you were, you wouldn't be looking at a 30 year old car in the first place, and you'd be driving a modern car with triple the horsepower and PDK, like the pros. If you get a 915 and it's worn out or needing adjustment, just get that fixed. Reliability of the G50 vs 915? The bottom line is that if either gearbox needs service, you're looking at thousands to get it fixed.
Here is a premise worth considering. Some buyers say they are used to a modern Honda gearbox, and that's why they prefer to find a G50. I'll suggest that the entire point of getting an air cooled 911 (and paying top dollar for the privilege) is to have a vintage "leather goggles" driving experience. No power steering. Suspension firmness opposite of "floaty sofa". Mechanical clutch. No nanny assist or stereo or DVD player or Navigation. An exhaust rumble. Even an oil dipstick! The very point of buying an old 911 is that it's nothing like your modern convenient Honda, and that it's different. In that regard, a 915 gearbox is more authentically vintage than a G50 anyway. The guy that wants a modern gearbox probably would not be happy in a 30 year old car in the first place, and might prefer a 997, right?
In general, there is too much "Road & Track" data specification analysis/paralysis here, and not enough test driving. How large is your search radius? You might want to increase it to 2-3 hours. Once you drive these cars, you will see the differences are trivial for road driving. You say that you have been shopping for a couple of years. Shopping for cars is a fun journey, but to pull the trigger, the first step is to forget about the G50 vs. 915 debate. Comparing weight of an SC and 3.2 is also very academic. For 99% of your driving, the differences are moot. It seems CIS vs. Motronic is the most practical factor that may influence your search parameters.
After you decide on '78-'89 or just '84-'89, shopping for your car is not like ticking off a "build sheet" for a new $150k car you are ordering from the factory. You are limited by real world constraints of what is available and crosses your path, even if you plan to budget $1000 for each car you jump on a plane to visit. Make it your goal to physically view 5 cars soon. With that, you will get a better sense of what is out there, because when the right car comes around, you are not going to have time to dilly dally and think about it. It will be sold from right under you. You need to get to a place where you know the market, the basic range of condition of cars out there, and be ready with a stack of cash.
As many others have already said, the last word in this discussion is to buy your SC or 3.2 in the right condition and history, from the right owner, within your search radius, at a price you're comfortable with.
Last edited by sugarwood; 10-03-2016 at 04:08 PM.
08-18-2016, 01:38 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
sugarwood has it scoped.
Well said commentary.
The departure from 915 to G50 and resulting refinement and commentary is NO where the same comparison for those who have driven an early 914 and the later style trans. in later teeners. The tailshifter vs sideshifter argument on early and later 914 comparos.
That comparison easily involved the notion one was stirring a wooden stick thru a small jar full of marbles on the early trans and a completely different, more precise style of at least knowing with 80% certainty which gear you had selected in the later style......
an argument not quite as dramatic in the 915 vs. G50 analysis. ( And I love the above statement made about "analysis/paralysis".)
Having driven many miles in each of the above two scenarios, I will state emphatically in concurring and resonating tones, the condition and the type of seller offloading the car, are the two most important considerations. Oh, you don't believe in the "type of seller" selling ?
I have always found my very best buys have been on not only the vehicle's presentation and condition, but I buy the seller as well. Especially on higher end, quality vehicles.
A dubious seller is at best trying to indeed "offload", but more often is unaware and superficial with a touch of snake oil peddler thrown in.
A quality seller with a quality car will be a home run nearly every time.
So if the quality of car is comparable, the type of seller is of quality and has great records to back up his selling story, the 915 vs. G50 becomes almost a non entity.
I own my '88 Carrera BECAUSE of the seller ( he was a personal friend and was, still IS a trusted friend ), the tremendous condition of the car, the quite rare color and option categories, and the G50 as it's final touch. In that order. The cost of it was a distant 5th place consideration.
Well said commentary.
The departure from 915 to G50 and resulting refinement and commentary is NO where the same comparison for those who have driven an early 914 and the later style trans. in later teeners. The tailshifter vs sideshifter argument on early and later 914 comparos.
That comparison easily involved the notion one was stirring a wooden stick thru a small jar full of marbles on the early trans and a completely different, more precise style of at least knowing with 80% certainty which gear you had selected in the later style......
an argument not quite as dramatic in the 915 vs. G50 analysis. ( And I love the above statement made about "analysis/paralysis".)
Having driven many miles in each of the above two scenarios, I will state emphatically in concurring and resonating tones, the condition and the type of seller offloading the car, are the two most important considerations. Oh, you don't believe in the "type of seller" selling ?
I have always found my very best buys have been on not only the vehicle's presentation and condition, but I buy the seller as well. Especially on higher end, quality vehicles.
A dubious seller is at best trying to indeed "offload", but more often is unaware and superficial with a touch of snake oil peddler thrown in.
A quality seller with a quality car will be a home run nearly every time.
So if the quality of car is comparable, the type of seller is of quality and has great records to back up his selling story, the 915 vs. G50 becomes almost a non entity.
I own my '88 Carrera BECAUSE of the seller ( he was a personal friend and was, still IS a trusted friend ), the tremendous condition of the car, the quite rare color and option categories, and the G50 as it's final touch. In that order. The cost of it was a distant 5th place consideration.
08-18-2016, 03:47 PM
#36
Drifting
Originally Posted by flatman
Sugarwood, very very well said. I could not agree more. I actually purchased an 84 a little while back.
08-18-2016, 04:04 PM
#37
Couldn't agree with Sugarwood more. Before I bought my 82, I drove G50 cars as well. Frankly I didn't see that much of a difference between a 915 and G50, but hey, I just shifts the gears and go……..maybe I'm not paying enough attention.
08-19-2016, 12:13 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
No, paying $20k more is ludicrous.
If you can operate a clutch, you can drive a 915. Period. Sure, it might take a minute to adjust to the heavier pedal and looser throw, but it's just a gearbox, not some arcane medieval abacus contraption that people can't operate without an long apprenticeship and flight training. The internet anti-hype surrounding the 915 borders on ludicrous. I don't have to pause between gears when shifting my 80,000 mile 915 gearbox. I just shift. I can also shift into 1st while rolling to a stop. Unless a pre-G50 tranny is defective or badly in need or service, anyone can drive it.
A correctly adjusted and serviced 915 is a perfectly good gearbox. It was in production for the better part of 2 decades. It is not defective. It was not recalled. It was not subject to lemon laws. Contrary to internet folklore, remarkably, it actually does shifts the gears. Go figure! Are you going to be shifting with lighting precision where every 1/10 second counts? No, you are not. If you were, you wouldn't be looking at a 30 year old car in the first place, and you'd be driving a modern car with triple the horsepower and PDK, like the pros. If you get a 915 and it's worn out or needing adjustment, just get that fixed. Reliability of the G50 vs 915? The bottom line is that if either gearbox needs service, you're looking at thousands to get it fixed.
Here is a premise worth considering. Some buyers say they are used to a modern Honda gearbox, and that's why they prefer to find a G50. I'll suggest that the entire point of getting an air cooled 911 (and paying top dollar for the privilege) is to have a vintage "leather goggles" driving experience. No power steering. Suspension firmness opposite of "floaty sofa". Mechanical clutch. No nanny assist or stereo or DVD player or Navigation. An exhaust rumble. Even an oil dipstick! The very point of buying an old 911 is that it's nothing like your modern convenient Honda, and that it's different. In that regard, a 915 gearbox is more authentically vintage than a G50 anyway. The guy that wants a modern gearbox probably would not be happy in a 30 year old car in the first place, and might prefer a 997, right?
In general, there is too much "Road & Track" data specification analysis/paralysis here, and not enough test driving. How large is your search radius? You might want to increase it to 2-3 hours. Once you drive these cars, you will see the differences are trivial for road driving. You say that you have been shopping for a couple of years. Shopping for cars is a fun journey, but to pull the trigger, the first step is to forget about the G50 vs. 915 debate. Comparing weight of an SC and 3.2 is also very academic. For 99% of your driving, the differences are moot. It seems CIS vs. Motronic is the most practical factor that may influence your search parameters.
After you decide on '78-'89 or just '84-'89, shopping for your car is not like ticking off a "build sheet" for a new $150k car you are ordering from the factory. You are limited by real world constraints of what is available and crosses your path, even if you plan to budget $1000 for each car you jump on a plane to visit. Make it your goal to physically view 5 cars soon. With that, you will get a better sense of what is out there, because when the right car comes around, you are not going to have time to dilly dally and think about it. It will be sold from right under you. You need to get to a place where you know the market, the basic range of condition of cars out there, and be ready with a stack of cash.
As many others have already said, the last word in this discussion is to buy your SC or 3.2 in the right condition and history, from the right owner, within your search radius, at a price you're comfortable with.
If you can operate a clutch, you can drive a 915. Period. Sure, it might take a minute to adjust to the heavier pedal and looser throw, but it's just a gearbox, not some arcane medieval abacus contraption that people can't operate without an long apprenticeship and flight training. The internet anti-hype surrounding the 915 borders on ludicrous. I don't have to pause between gears when shifting my 80,000 mile 915 gearbox. I just shift. I can also shift into 1st while rolling to a stop. Unless a pre-G50 tranny is defective or badly in need or service, anyone can drive it.
A correctly adjusted and serviced 915 is a perfectly good gearbox. It was in production for the better part of 2 decades. It is not defective. It was not recalled. It was not subject to lemon laws. Contrary to internet folklore, remarkably, it actually does shifts the gears. Go figure! Are you going to be shifting with lighting precision where every 1/10 second counts? No, you are not. If you were, you wouldn't be looking at a 30 year old car in the first place, and you'd be driving a modern car with triple the horsepower and PDK, like the pros. If you get a 915 and it's worn out or needing adjustment, just get that fixed. Reliability of the G50 vs 915? The bottom line is that if either gearbox needs service, you're looking at thousands to get it fixed.
Here is a premise worth considering. Some buyers say they are used to a modern Honda gearbox, and that's why they prefer to find a G50. I'll suggest that the entire point of getting an air cooled 911 (and paying top dollar for the privilege) is to have a vintage "leather goggles" driving experience. No power steering. Suspension firmness opposite of "floaty sofa". Mechanical clutch. No nanny assist or stereo or DVD player or Navigation. An exhaust rumble. Even an oil dipstick! The very point of buying an old 911 is that it's nothing like your modern convenient Honda, and that it's different. In that regard, a 915 gearbox is more authentically vintage than a G50 anyway. The guy that wants a modern gearbox probably would not be happy in a 30 year old car in the first place, and might prefer a 997, right?
In general, there is too much "Road & Track" data specification analysis/paralysis here, and not enough test driving. How large is your search radius? You might want to increase it to 2-3 hours. Once you drive these cars, you will see the differences are trivial for road driving. You say that you have been shopping for a couple of years. Shopping for cars is a fun journey, but to pull the trigger, the first step is to forget about the G50 vs. 915 debate. Comparing weight of an SC and 3.2 is also very academic. For 99% of your driving, the differences are moot. It seems CIS vs. Motronic is the most practical factor that may influence your search parameters.
After you decide on '78-'89 or just '84-'89, shopping for your car is not like ticking off a "build sheet" for a new $150k car you are ordering from the factory. You are limited by real world constraints of what is available and crosses your path, even if you plan to budget $1000 for each car you jump on a plane to visit. Make it your goal to physically view 5 cars soon. With that, you will get a better sense of what is out there, because when the right car comes around, you are not going to have time to dilly dally and think about it. It will be sold from right under you. You need to get to a place where you know the market, the basic range of condition of cars out there, and be ready with a stack of cash.
As many others have already said, the last word in this discussion is to buy your SC or 3.2 in the right condition and history, from the right owner, within your search radius, at a price you're comfortable with.
08-24-2016, 11:01 AM
#41
Intermediate
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Again I think Sugarwood has it dead on. I couple of other thoughts though. I'm not sure I'm totally sold on maintenance records and PPI's as the best indication of a car's condition. My buying experience still left me with some issues - for instance every car I looked at supposedly did not leak and there are always long time gaps between servicing especially on low mileage 30 year old cars. I chose to have a major done after I bought from a private party. If I had bought from a trustworthy specialist dealer I may not have bothered. Frankly I wanted a reliable baseline for the car because over the long run I know I'll be spending on future maintenance unknowns. Of course that should figure into the price you pay for the car.
08-24-2016, 12:08 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
I agree, especially since the value difference between a G50 and a 915 in otherwise identical spec cars is more like $5k. And for my money, after having owned two 86's and an '88, the extra money spent is well worth it because I enjoy the G50's more precise and positive-feel shifting over the 915. IMO it is a definite improvement without detracting from the driving experience one iota.
08-24-2016, 10:01 PM
#44
Instructor
Some fact about 3,2 in Europe
When I was in search for a 3,2 I do not payd attention to the G50 gearbox, but to a 930-20 model
with the 231 Hp engine with high compression rate and without cat
this is for many enthusiastic here in Germany more important than a G 50 and 217 cat engine
while my car is not a garage queen I can enjoy it very frequently and not think about valuation or so
When I was in search for a 3,2 I do not payd attention to the G50 gearbox, but to a 930-20 model
with the 231 Hp engine with high compression rate and without cat
this is for many enthusiastic here in Germany more important than a G 50 and 217 cat engine
while my car is not a garage queen I can enjoy it very frequently and not think about valuation or so
mine is a euro 3.2 with high compression engine, no cat. As quick as my previous 964. Honest truth.
