Joe6pack

I was reading this month's Panorama and in the tech section there was a question about the cost of a rebuild. The author stated that a 911 engine rebuild should run between $15 and $20,000. My question is why. I don't need a rebuild, but if I ever do, that is more than my car is worth. I have rebuilt small block Fords before and I just don't understand what can make an overhaul cost that much. Even on a Porsche, it seems like the kind of thing an expert could do in a couple of days. Surely they make rebuild kits - ala Ford and Chevy.

While we're on the subject, is a there a book out there like Tom Monroe's "How to rebuild your small block Ford" for Porsches.

Thanks,

John

TroyN

Wayne Dempsey of Pelican Parts wrote a book about rebuilding Porsche engines. The parts are expensive and it takes more specialized skill than a Ford or Chevy too. Friend of mine just had his done to the tune of about $15K...

Joe6pack

I think if I ever need a rebuild, I will try it myself. Being a mechanical engineer doesn't hurt. I haven't looked into the inner workings of a flat six yet but it seems that overall, it should be simpler. If nothing else, there is no water pump, etc. Everything seems nice and modular. I can see the parts being quite expensive, however (like everything else on these cars).

911Dave

I read that tech question too and, yes, 15k-20k is very unusual for a 911 engine. More typical is $8-12k depending on whether you do it yourself or pay someone else, and whether or not you can reuse the p's and c's, and how much non-essential machine work you want done.

race911

Sure, you can do it. I did mine when I was 18 in 1980-1 with really no previous mechanical experience. And no books, either. Led me to a lifetime (so far) of intimate enjoyment of 911s specifically, and Porsches in general.

Now, off to cost. I have no idea what you do for a living, but I'm sure you have an absolute sense of what it's worth, monetarily. Then, consider the quote thrown around in Panorama. That's a rebuild from someone who we would probably consider an industry expert. If you're likewise in your career, you can fully appreciate what your skill brings to the table over a generic practitioner. And often an industry leading expert's charges to consult/repair might exceed the worth of the underlying product.

That explained, no way no how do you get through a 911 engine (even in the most basic 915 trans/CIS injected form) without spending 50+ hours on the job, start to finish. I could slam out each labor component chapter-and-verse, but that's not worth the time in a "what if" discussion. As above, if you want to do it yourself, yeah you can. And it would be fine for a 20-35+ year old car without historic value. (Yeah, a '73RS engine, of which I've done a couple, is the same deal as any number of 2.7L carb/MFI conversion engines I've built, but it's probably better to have a receipt from Jerry Woods rather than me circa 1990 for resaleability.)

Ultimately, it's not a simple engine. But neither is it complex. The second engine I rebuilt was an L series Datsun 4 cylinder. I wondered where all the rest of the parts were....... But be very aware that if you entrust a rebuild project to a "name" in the business, you will get decades of experience as part of the job. Experience that will almost 100% ensure things will be rebuilt properly; any "gotchas" being discovered and properly repaired. Experience that only you can decide is worth the dollar savings.

Amber Gramps

You just need to know who to PM to get it done for a fraction of that price.

HarryD

As noted above, check Wayne Dempsey's book for the How to's (http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...31%31%20Engine).

Once you read the book, pop on over to the Pelican Parts Catalog and check out the Engine Rebuilding Parts wizard (http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...engine_rebuild) to get an idea for the parts cost.

Add the cost of any machine work (valve guides, line boring etc).

Lastly, a competent 911 mechanic will need 30-40 hours to rebuild your engine.

HarryD

Ken:

Well stated.

From my conversations with others, while I think most of us would do an ok job, the devil is in the details.

How do you know when a part is too worn to reuse?

Are the measurements you took correct?

I truly think the 30/40/50 hour rebuild time is by someone who has done a few of them and knows exactly how to proceed. For first timers, I suspect the time is closer to 100+ hours.

And then there is the whole question of warranty and resale value.

Amber Gramps

^^^ Yes, then do the job yourself and save 70%. Sub out all machine work to one of many competent shops, and do the rest yourself.

Much of what you need is right here in my avatar....the rest can be found here:

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=&q=micrometer

http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/pr...ategoryID=6006

http://www.wholesale-scales.com/inde...index&cPath=39

http://www.amazon.com/Central-Tools-.../dp/B000P6WLY2

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co.../photo_10.html

jsabatini

Are there other options available? With my '90 Bimmer there is Metric Mechanics who tune and rebuild the older BMW engines, so you can drop one of these in your Bimmer.

Is there an equivalent to Metric Mechanic for older 911's?

TroyN

Sure, there's always Motor Meister...

You can look for a complete engine that someone's selling, that's almost always cheaper than a full rebuild. Of course there's often risk involved but from time to time I've even seen just-rebuilt engines for sale, by pedigreed shops etc. When I blew the motor in my SC I ended up have my shop find a used one for around $5500 and it worked out well.

whalebird

Good thread. Race911 is dead nuts on. The 8-10K motors are little more than a reseal with head studs. In my previous shop, what started as a 81 euro spec 3.0 rebuild, snowballed (while your in there). Raceware studs throughout, 993 oil pump, windage reliefed case, Andial matchported/polished heads/balance rotating assy, webcams, Dopke rockers, Mahle 3.2 high compression, lightened flywheel, all the little stuff for the remaining CIS injection; just shy of $24K. This does not include the $2K SSI/Monte exhaust. All the while it was bolted into a shabby euro body. Well, the custom Bilstien's/sway bars/big brakes/RSR bumpers-oil cooler...it goes on and on. Wicked fast SC, daily driven for a decade now and has by all calculations, close to 10000 TRACK miles. Oh, it has a grumbly 915 we haven't even talked about.
Not to be an alarmist here, but these cars are a passion and a long term hobby.

Cajun

Great thread. I have a 3.2 car that I am considering rebuilding myself. Like many on these boards, my experience lies in chevy 350s and Ford 302s...

I was told by my VERY experienced Pcar mechanic that if I take my time, I can do it (of course he is always just a phone call away)... Not sure why I haven't taken the plunge yet, but my reasoning is that I am going to spend the money anyway, I might as well try it myself first...

Keep the comments coming guys. It always helps to hear from guys who have turned wrenches on these cars.

whalebird

I've known first-time 911 engine guys to do a great job. The key here is that you have already developed good project management, organization/cleanliness, and tool usage skills. There is no magic, but you have to have developed patience, the instinct to STOP when somethings amiss, and always ask questions when in doubt - the ability to know how, when and where to find the right answers.
I also knew a veteran master tech(line-tech) at a Nissan dealer that pretty much thought he could fix anything...he grenaded a couple of air cooled motors; that dude just couldn't figure it out.

JackOlsen

At the risk of a re-post, here was my bargain-basement engine swap path:

1) Sell your in-need-of-a-rebuild old motor (for 2K, in my case)
2) Use that against the 6k price for a 1995 993 motor (patience -- or additional k's -- required)
3) Do the install in your own garage in a weekend (friends required)
4) Head to the dyno with your Steve Wong chip (Steve required)





It's a never-touched 1995 3.6 motor. 264 at the wheels. I also have close-ratio gearing and some other stuff.