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Old 04-26-2017, 12:47 PM
  #16  
Ted in Rochester
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I believe I read someplace that the Mission E will have a carbon fiber tub. If so, I suspect this would be a first for a 4 door car and certainly sounds expensive. It makes sense that Porsche would use a CF tub since this would provide the rigidity for suicide rear doors and would also keep weight down.

Like the prior poster, I am on my local dealers list and will be astonished if the ME is priced under $100K.
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:28 PM
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Randy V
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Originally Posted by Ted in Rochester View Post
Probable Base Price??????

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Old 04-29-2017, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RealityGT View Post
CJ, I recently read online that Porsche will be dropping the price on the E, in order to compete with the model 3 and a potential rename would be Pajun (Panny Junior).. Any credence to this information below?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan

Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”

That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.

That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.
I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
Whoever thinks the Mission E will be $50 - 80K has been smoking some good stuff and I suspect the munchies are long gone by now. A nicely optioned copy will be $200k and they'll sell every one they can make. You don't need insider info to know this.
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:25 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
The cost equivalent of Model S was also explained to me by my dealer, but that was almost 2 years ago.. this article does seem to indicate a potential change in that thought process and includes Blume's name drop.. So it had me questioning the pricing, as times have changed since the initial announcement of the mission E.

Originally Posted by dasams View Post
Whoever thinks the Mission E will be $50 - 80K has been smoking some good stuff and I suspect the munchies are long gone by now. A nicely optioned copy will be $200k and they'll sell every one they can make. You don't need insider info to know this.
Source of your pricing?
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:26 AM
  #21  
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Can't imagine it's under $175K out the door. Tesla will be launching the new Roadster at roughly the same time. Will be interesting to see how the market responds. The Porsche folks continually hammer Tesla for the inability of the Model S to be tracked although these are the same Porsche folks who are voting 65-35 that they don't intend to track the new GT3!
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:58 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by RealityGT View Post
CJ, I recently read online that Porsche will be dropping the price on the E, in order to compete with the model 3 and a potential rename would be Pajun (Panny Junior).. Any credence to this information below?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan

Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”

That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.

That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.
So it seems as though the article had some merit. 2 credible sources (One being Chaosoul the Oracle of RL) have confirmed the the price will be set below the base Panny.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:02 PM
  #23  
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$50,000 yea right! Ha good laugh. It will not be one penny south of 95,000 and probably more like $145,000 base.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ejdoherty911 View Post
$50,000 yea right! Ha good laugh. It will not be one penny south of 95,000 and probably more like $145,000 base.
Where did you read this? Can you provide a link to said article or discussion?
Interested to read more as the magic 8 ball has somewhat validated the pricing discussed in the article posted above you.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:34 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
I agree, base price $160k
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:58 AM
  #26  
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I'm unclear why people keep insisting that the Porsche CEO is lying about their pricing plans. Also note that Blume specifically mentioned power in the 400-450 HP range, not the 600+ HP of the concept car. If they're cutting back price, it's entirely possible they'll cut back on things like carbon fiber to reduce weight.

In that power range, they're not trying to compete with the Tesla P100D with claimed 760 HP. Sure, the Mission E will almost certainly be track ready in a way no Model S is, but they know a lot of buyers, particularly American buyers, are going to look no further than the HP figure.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a wide range in Mission E trims, the way there is with everything else they make. If it parallels the Panamera line, we'll see everything from 300 to 600 HP, with prices scaled to match.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:48 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by gnochi View Post
Just to throw some numbers in there:

The Tesla Model S pack resistance is around 0.064Ohms
Where did this number come from?

My Nissan with a 24kWh battery (~ 60 Ahr) has an output impedance of about 62 mohms
(.062 ohms) at 33 C now at about 50K miles. When it was new it had about 56 mohms
at the same temp.

The Model S with a 85kWh battery (Panasonic) should have less than 20 mohms. The Model S with
a 100 kWh battery should have less than about 15 mohms.

Please re-check your source of info!
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:08 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Lorenfb View Post
Where did this number come from?

My Nissan with a 24kWh battery (~ 60 Ahr) has an output impedance of about 62 mohms
(.062 ohms) at 33 C now at about 50K miles. When it was new it had about 56 mohms
at the same temp.

The Model S with a 85kWh battery (Panasonic) should have less than 20 mohms. The Model S with
a 100 kWh battery should have less than about 15 mohms.

Please re-check your source of info!
The source is me physically disassembling a bunch of packs from a bunch of OEMs and measuring all that stuff

Cell impedence for the 18650s Tesla uses is about 45 mOhm. Each of the wirebonds has an impedence of about 7 mOhm, so 14 mOhm per cell, and this results in a net 59 mOhm per cell.

The P95D pack is 96S74P, so (96/74)*(59 mOhm) = 63.5 mOhm. Altogether the bolted joints and busbars and such come to another 0.5 mOhms, for a net 64 mOhms per pack.

The Nissan Leaf uses pouch cells that are laserwelded together; these particular pouches are optimized for impedence at the expense of energy density at around 1.2mOhm and 30Ah per cell. This makes cooling significantly easier (and therefore the pack much cheaper), and there are 48x 2S2P modules. The net resistance is (48*2/2)*(1.2mOhm) = 57.6mOhm. (Busbar resistance and the welds combined are again around 0.5mOhm/pack.)

Basically, the vehicles are optimized for very different purposes and the packs and cell choices reflect that. As such, the packs aren't directly comparable in really any way at all.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:03 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by gnochi View Post
The source is me physically disassembling a bunch of packs from a bunch of OEMs and measuring all that stuff

Cell impedence for the 18650s Tesla uses is about 45 mOhm. Each of the wirebonds has an impedence of about 7 mOhm, so 14 mOhm per cell, and this results in a net 59 mOhm per cell.

The P95D pack is 96S74P, so (96/74)*(59 mOhm) = 63.5 mOhm. Altogether the bolted joints and busbars and such come to another 0.5 mOhms, for a net 64 mOhms per pack.

The Nissan Leaf uses pouch cells that are laserwelded together; these particular pouches are optimized for impedence at the expense of energy density at around 1.2mOhm and 30Ah per cell. This makes cooling significantly easier (and therefore the pack much cheaper), and there are 48x 2S2P modules. The net resistance is (48*2/2)*(1.2mOhm) = 57.6mOhm. (Busbar resistance and the welds combined are again around 0.5mOhm/pack.)

Basically, the vehicles are optimized for very different purposes and the packs and cell choices reflect that. As such, the packs aren't directly comparable in really any way at all.
The actual impedance needs to be measured dynamically in the vehicle under full load conditions, remember;

Impedance = delta V / delta I

Furthermore, if the Telsa battery had that high of an impedance, voltage drop to the motor
would be about 60 volts under full acceleration (1000 amps), i.e. a significant power loss.

In any case, find the actual report (link) where it's reported.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:12 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Lorenfb View Post
The actual impedance needs to be measured dynamically in the vehicle under full load conditions, remember;

Impedance = delta V / delta I

Furthermore, if the Telsa battery had that high of an impedance, voltage drop to the motor
would be about 60 volts under full acceleration (1000 amps), i.e. a significant power loss.

In any case, find the actual report (link) where it's reported.
It is a huge voltage drop and a huge power loss, with a correspondingly high cooling requirement. It's a fact of life for high performance EVs (which the Leaf is not by any definition). And why would they ever report that info publically? It's competitive advantage territory.

We tested various discharge rates and states of charge. The cells individually bottom out at about 42mOhm for really low discharge rate, 45mOhm+/-1mOhm for typical discharge rates and 20%-90% SOC, and go as high as 70mOhm at low states of charge.

There are cells with lower impedence, but they universally have lower energy as well, because there's a tradeoff between metal volume (low resistance, no energy) and jelly roll volume (high resistance, high energy).
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