Spied: "Turbo" Taycan with massive PCCB carbon brakes?
02-12-2019, 03:42 AM
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Spied: "Turbo" Taycan with massive PCCB carbon brakes?
https://www.taycanforum.com/threads/...ic-brakes.203/
Could this be the "Turbo" Taycan? Funny seeing PCCB on front but covered wheels on the back.
Could this be the "Turbo" Taycan? Funny seeing PCCB on front but covered wheels on the back.
02-12-2019, 05:31 AM
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The fronts are going to need a lot more heat dissipation than the rears in normal usage, perhaps that's why they didn't/couldn't cover the fronts?
I'm actually starting to quite like the latest look, there's a lot of tape around the back which I hope is hiding some details which will elevate the design.
Right now the thing I like most is the orange glow around the handles and door shuts while on the move, very Tron.
I'm actually starting to quite like the latest look, there's a lot of tape around the back which I hope is hiding some details which will elevate the design.
Right now the thing I like most is the orange glow around the handles and door shuts while on the move, very Tron.
02-12-2019, 10:22 AM
#3
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The fronts are going to need a lot more heat dissipation than the rears in normal usage, perhaps that's why they didn't/couldn't cover the fronts?
I'm actually starting to quite like the latest look, there's a lot of tape around the back which I hope is hiding some details which will elevate the design.
Right now the thing I like most is the orange glow around the handles and door shuts while on the move, very Tron.
I'm actually starting to quite like the latest look, there's a lot of tape around the back which I hope is hiding some details which will elevate the design.
Right now the thing I like most is the orange glow around the handles and door shuts while on the move, very Tron.
Note that on the "Turbo" that's in blue.
I'm sure that it's just the car underneath is those colors, and it's wrapped in black. Look at the close up of the last few pics. Clearly a wrap or cover applied. Or maybe one of those new spray on coatings. Notice how heavy the orange peel is.
02-12-2019, 10:28 AM
#4
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"Spy shots". LOL. Someone with a High Res DSLR was allowed to walk around the cars while parked. With the trunk open. While the driver just sits there nonchalant. Including close ups of underneath. Can you say "leaked"?
Front appears to be very close to production. Rear has quite a bit of cladding bolted on the bottom portion of the rear end. Interesting that they went with a trunk instead of a hatch like the panamera. Hoping to gain more US appeal? Keeping costs down? Note that the Model 3 looks like it should be a hatch like the Model S, but it's a trunk. Curious.
Overall I think it's going to be pretty close to the Mission E, or at least as close as you could get without 22" wheels and suicide doors. It will be interesting to see the interior, to say the least. Would love to see how those "floating" digital gauges end up in the finished product.. Looking at the pics side by side vs. the Panamera, it's clear that it's a similar car, but 100% different. Proportions are similar but different. Front overhang is shorter and nose plunges much more rapidly on the Taycan vs the Panny. And the rear is stubbier and a little more muscular. It should look good in person. The Panamera looks too much like a limo. There is a much more pronounced hip line on the Taycan. The hood is also longer and squared off like the 992, not higher and rounded like the 991.
I'm curious about the trapezoidal inset on the rear bumper. Wonder if that's just part of the camo?
Front appears to be very close to production. Rear has quite a bit of cladding bolted on the bottom portion of the rear end. Interesting that they went with a trunk instead of a hatch like the panamera. Hoping to gain more US appeal? Keeping costs down? Note that the Model 3 looks like it should be a hatch like the Model S, but it's a trunk. Curious.
Overall I think it's going to be pretty close to the Mission E, or at least as close as you could get without 22" wheels and suicide doors. It will be interesting to see the interior, to say the least. Would love to see how those "floating" digital gauges end up in the finished product.. Looking at the pics side by side vs. the Panamera, it's clear that it's a similar car, but 100% different. Proportions are similar but different. Front overhang is shorter and nose plunges much more rapidly on the Taycan vs the Panny. And the rear is stubbier and a little more muscular. It should look good in person. The Panamera looks too much like a limo. There is a much more pronounced hip line on the Taycan. The hood is also longer and squared off like the 992, not higher and rounded like the 991.
I'm curious about the trapezoidal inset on the rear bumper. Wonder if that's just part of the camo?
02-12-2019, 12:41 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Nice views of the car. I'm not sure why anyone would need those brakes - especially in a EV where much of the braking is done via regeneration. Unless, perhaps, you were going to make an assault on the 'Ring or similar.
The wheels are of more interest. Two different aero styles - one similar to the aero caps on the Model 3, the other similar to the old aero wheel option on early Model S. Then split-Y wheels - which are always a cool look.
The wheels are of more interest. Two different aero styles - one similar to the aero caps on the Model 3, the other similar to the old aero wheel option on early Model S. Then split-Y wheels - which are always a cool look.
02-12-2019, 01:27 PM
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Educate me here on regenerative braking. I thought regenerative braking needed ferrous rotors (i.e., the friction braking and regenerative braking shared the same rotor), but that wouldn't work with PCCB. Or is there a secondary rotor somewhere for the regeneration system?
02-12-2019, 01:29 PM
#7
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I'd like to believe once the headlight stickers are removed the car's front end will be far less subdued. You can get a small sense of that in some of the shots. In all, I'm digging the lines of the car more and more. I have to continually remind myself...patience is a virtue, patience is a virtue, patience is a virtue.
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02-12-2019, 02:25 PM
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The fronts are going to need a lot more heat dissipation than the rears in normal usage, perhaps that's why they didn't/couldn't cover the fronts?
I'm actually starting to quite like the latest look, there's a lot of tape around the back which I hope is hiding some details which will elevate the design.
Right now the thing I like most is the orange glow around the handles and door shuts while on the move, very Tron.
I'm actually starting to quite like the latest look, there's a lot of tape around the back which I hope is hiding some details which will elevate the design.
Right now the thing I like most is the orange glow around the handles and door shuts while on the move, very Tron.
This would be one bright Taycan in real life! Orange paint with huge yellow PCCB.
02-12-2019, 02:42 PM
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@Brett - 1996 C4 Regenerative braking uses the electric motor’s to slow the car by running them as “generators” when “braking” - when being used as generators they have a natural resistance that causes a slowing effect since the car now has to “work” to rotate the wheels since the motors are engaged to the drive shafts to the wheels - since energy can not be created or destroyed only converted - regenerative braking slows the car by converting kinetic energy to electricity to be stored in the battery - this causes the car to slow via the loss of kinetic energy. The friction brakes play _NO_ role in regenerative braking - I use it almost exclusively on my Tesla & Bolt and my friction brake wear is therefore negligible (the only time I use the friction brakes in my EV's is when something surprising happens in front of me - other wise I "coast" to a stop almost exclusively)
With proper planning you can bring the Chevy Bolt to a complete stop simply by lifting off the accelerator and _NEVER_ touching the brake - it smoothly comes to a stop and recharges the battery in the process - recovering up to 60% of the raw kinetic energy and storing that energy back in the battery for re-use.
PCCB’s on an EV is an interesting marketing concept, but with a proper regenerative braking system they will never be engaged in normal driving.
Porsche has stated they are not fans of “one pedal” driving - and therefore when using the brake pedal on a Porsche EV software will “blend” EV motor regenerative braking with friction braking - I’m very very interested to play with the Taycan to see if there is sufficient pedal control to avoid engaging the friction brakes - since I want to do most of my driving purely with EV motor braking which recovers the most amount of energy possible from power generation to slow the car. With one pedal driving you have absolute control over use of the friction brakes since if you don’t touch the brake pedal it’s 100% regenerative braking. Any use of friction brakes is loss of potential kinetic energy converted to thermal friction waste heat rather than converted to electricity - the maximum amount of recovered energy is achieve via zero friction braking.
regenerative braking is one of the many reasons EV’s are lower maintenance in that friction brakes are far less (rarely to never) used on an EV and therefore last much much longer - and rarely require service or replacement. If I do use the friction brakes it's only to bring hte car to a stop for that last 5-10 mph to zero - which is to say while the friction brakes are used the actual amount of wear to slow a car from 10 mph or less is virtually nil…At my last service of my Tesla Model S I had worn 1 mm of 14/15 mm on the front brake pads from 56,xxx miles of use - the rear pads had no detectable wear.
regenerative braking does take some getting use to - in that when the battery is full or nearly full there is no place to "store" the electricity and the amount of force generative braking generates is greatly reduced or absent - also on particularly cold mornings with a cold battery it's ability to accept a charge is greatly diminished and therefore there is a corresponding reduction in regenerative braking effectiveness. While this takes getting use to, one just needs to know regenerative braking will vary in effectiveness and be prepared to use the friction brakes if necessary.
One of the software tweaks that "track mode" addresses the Tesla Model 3 Performance is to make regenerative braking more consistent and predictable for braking points while on a road corse - my impression is that they have dialed back regenerative braking in terms of it's maximum force reduction but it behaves much more consistently so you can predict how much it will slow the car and use the correct amount of friction brakes along with regenerative braking too achieve more consistent lap times - without track mode regenerative braking has some variability based on battery thermals and current SOC state - track mode smooths out regenerative braking while reducing it's effectiveness and efficiency but dramatically increases predictability. The variability in regenerative braking is negligible for street driving, but noticeable on track with out track mode. This is an area in which I would expect Porsche to excel and their blended braking approach and smart software probably strives to make the brake pedal effect consistent and the software is changing the mix of regen+friction dynamically based on conditions but offering 100% consistent braking effectiveness for similar amount of pedal force/travel…(i.e. if software detects reduces regenerative effectiveness it can dial "up" the friction braking % to "fill in" for the changing behavior of regen) - like I said I'm going to be very very interested to actually play with the Taycan and see what Porsche has done with the braking system - I'm optimistic it will be an industry benchmark and one of the distinct advantages of the type Porsche is known for.
What is clear to me is that given that PCCB's last virtually for ever in street use on ICE cars, on an EV given less friction brake engagement (even with blended braking) the corresponding reduction in friction braking usage will have a positive effect on PCCB longevity in normal street use - making them probably a "lifetime" of the car type of item. I will however humbly argue that PCCB's on an EV is even more of a marketing gimmick than they are now given that their superior thermal adsorption characteristics are even less necessary on an EV given their reduced contribution when stopping the car under normal conditions. Their weight however probably benefits the EV in a positive manner and we all know we like the yellow calipers to announce to the world that we could afford to option our Porsche just the way we wanted to
With proper planning you can bring the Chevy Bolt to a complete stop simply by lifting off the accelerator and _NEVER_ touching the brake - it smoothly comes to a stop and recharges the battery in the process - recovering up to 60% of the raw kinetic energy and storing that energy back in the battery for re-use.
PCCB’s on an EV is an interesting marketing concept, but with a proper regenerative braking system they will never be engaged in normal driving.
Porsche has stated they are not fans of “one pedal” driving - and therefore when using the brake pedal on a Porsche EV software will “blend” EV motor regenerative braking with friction braking - I’m very very interested to play with the Taycan to see if there is sufficient pedal control to avoid engaging the friction brakes - since I want to do most of my driving purely with EV motor braking which recovers the most amount of energy possible from power generation to slow the car. With one pedal driving you have absolute control over use of the friction brakes since if you don’t touch the brake pedal it’s 100% regenerative braking. Any use of friction brakes is loss of potential kinetic energy converted to thermal friction waste heat rather than converted to electricity - the maximum amount of recovered energy is achieve via zero friction braking.
regenerative braking is one of the many reasons EV’s are lower maintenance in that friction brakes are far less (rarely to never) used on an EV and therefore last much much longer - and rarely require service or replacement. If I do use the friction brakes it's only to bring hte car to a stop for that last 5-10 mph to zero - which is to say while the friction brakes are used the actual amount of wear to slow a car from 10 mph or less is virtually nil…At my last service of my Tesla Model S I had worn 1 mm of 14/15 mm on the front brake pads from 56,xxx miles of use - the rear pads had no detectable wear.
regenerative braking does take some getting use to - in that when the battery is full or nearly full there is no place to "store" the electricity and the amount of force generative braking generates is greatly reduced or absent - also on particularly cold mornings with a cold battery it's ability to accept a charge is greatly diminished and therefore there is a corresponding reduction in regenerative braking effectiveness. While this takes getting use to, one just needs to know regenerative braking will vary in effectiveness and be prepared to use the friction brakes if necessary.
One of the software tweaks that "track mode" addresses the Tesla Model 3 Performance is to make regenerative braking more consistent and predictable for braking points while on a road corse - my impression is that they have dialed back regenerative braking in terms of it's maximum force reduction but it behaves much more consistently so you can predict how much it will slow the car and use the correct amount of friction brakes along with regenerative braking too achieve more consistent lap times - without track mode regenerative braking has some variability based on battery thermals and current SOC state - track mode smooths out regenerative braking while reducing it's effectiveness and efficiency but dramatically increases predictability. The variability in regenerative braking is negligible for street driving, but noticeable on track with out track mode. This is an area in which I would expect Porsche to excel and their blended braking approach and smart software probably strives to make the brake pedal effect consistent and the software is changing the mix of regen+friction dynamically based on conditions but offering 100% consistent braking effectiveness for similar amount of pedal force/travel…(i.e. if software detects reduces regenerative effectiveness it can dial "up" the friction braking % to "fill in" for the changing behavior of regen) - like I said I'm going to be very very interested to actually play with the Taycan and see what Porsche has done with the braking system - I'm optimistic it will be an industry benchmark and one of the distinct advantages of the type Porsche is known for.
What is clear to me is that given that PCCB's last virtually for ever in street use on ICE cars, on an EV given less friction brake engagement (even with blended braking) the corresponding reduction in friction braking usage will have a positive effect on PCCB longevity in normal street use - making them probably a "lifetime" of the car type of item. I will however humbly argue that PCCB's on an EV is even more of a marketing gimmick than they are now given that their superior thermal adsorption characteristics are even less necessary on an EV given their reduced contribution when stopping the car under normal conditions. Their weight however probably benefits the EV in a positive manner and we all know we like the yellow calipers to announce to the world that we could afford to option our Porsche just the way we wanted to
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 02-12-2019 at 04:16 PM.
02-12-2019, 03:56 PM
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Regenerative braking uses the electric motor’s to slow the car by running them as “generators” when “braking” - when being used as generators they have a natural resistance that causes a slowing effect since the car now has to “work” to rotate the wheels since the motors are engaged to the drive shafts to the wheels - since energy can not be created or destroyed only converted - regenerative braking slows the car by converting kinetic energy to electricity - this causes the car to slow via the loss of kinetic energy. The friction brakes play _NO_ role in regenerative braking - I use it almost exclusively on my Tesla & Bolt and my friction brake wear is therefore negligible.
With proper planning you can bring the Chevy Bolt to a complete stop simply by lifting off the accelerator and _NEVER_ touching the brake - it smoothly comes to a stop and recharges the battery in the process - recovering up to 60% of the raw kinetic energy and storing that energy back in the battery for re-use.
PCCB’s on an EV is an interesting marketing concept, but with a proper regenerative braking system they will never be engaged in normal driving.
Porsche has stated they are not fans of “one pedal” driving - and therefore when using the brake pedal on a Porsche EV software will “blend” EV motor regenerative braking with friction braking - I’m very very interested to play with the Taycan to see if there is sufficient pedal control to avoid engaging the friction brakes - since I want to do most of my driving purely with EV motor braking which recovers the most amount of energy possible from power generation to slow the car. With one pedal driving you have absolute control over use of the friction brakes since if you don’t touch the brake pedal it’s 100% regenerative braking.
regenerative braking is one of the reasons EV’s are lower maintanence in that friction brakes are far less used on an EV and therefore last much much longer.
With proper planning you can bring the Chevy Bolt to a complete stop simply by lifting off the accelerator and _NEVER_ touching the brake - it smoothly comes to a stop and recharges the battery in the process - recovering up to 60% of the raw kinetic energy and storing that energy back in the battery for re-use.
PCCB’s on an EV is an interesting marketing concept, but with a proper regenerative braking system they will never be engaged in normal driving.
Porsche has stated they are not fans of “one pedal” driving - and therefore when using the brake pedal on a Porsche EV software will “blend” EV motor regenerative braking with friction braking - I’m very very interested to play with the Taycan to see if there is sufficient pedal control to avoid engaging the friction brakes - since I want to do most of my driving purely with EV motor braking which recovers the most amount of energy possible from power generation to slow the car. With one pedal driving you have absolute control over use of the friction brakes since if you don’t touch the brake pedal it’s 100% regenerative braking.
regenerative braking is one of the reasons EV’s are lower maintanence in that friction brakes are far less used on an EV and therefore last much much longer.
But, you yourself said in your M3P on track that you ran out of brakes pretty quickly. It's clear Porsche is playing up the sporting angle of this car and PCCB's is a good way to do it. Would certainly be sure to never run out of brake in an EV with those bad boys.
Plus, I have to believe that they are a big cash cow for Porsche. Plenty of people buy them for the bling and for the lack of brake dust and never use the performance. Can you imagine how long PCCB's would last on an EV with strong regen? Those really would be "lifetime" brakes. But I bet Porsche's margin on those is high, and people are used to buying them on P-Cars so even if not needed, why not? After all, Porsche LOVES selling options!!
02-12-2019, 04:11 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Educate me here on regenerative braking. I thought regenerative braking needed ferrous rotors (i.e., the friction braking and regenerative braking shared the same rotor), but that wouldn't work with PCCB. Or is there a secondary rotor somewhere for the regeneration system?
02-12-2019, 05:59 PM
#13
Intermediate
Some of the test cars have the Tungsten carbide PSCB introduced with the new Cayenne (white caliper plain discs)
The ceramic PCCB will help with reducing weight and increasing range and net HP.
As @daveo4porsche says, either of these should be lifetime of street use.
The ceramic PCCB will help with reducing weight and increasing range and net HP.
As @daveo4porsche says, either of these should be lifetime of street use.
02-14-2019, 07:13 AM
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Agree with others on this forum though, the design is growing on me as we see more evolved mules. The more I consider the front view without the obvious camo over the lights the more I think the production reveal will actually show us something quite pretty. Not as pretty as the Mission-e concept that's for sure but I think the Taycan is going to have enough about it to keep me interested.