daveo4porsche

daveo4porsche

still not a track car and some heavy lessons learned - but some promising data for a 4,100 lbs 4 door sedan on the track - I think if we "fix" the problems - I can get more data and get some better times…

based on what I learned - I can't wait to track the Taycan - better brake (oh how I love Porsche brakes), faster charging @ the 350,000 watt chargers at the walmart in willows - the Taycan could be a hoot on track and will certainly be better than the Model 3 - although for almost 1/4 the price the 3 isn't too bad - I never got to fast charge the Model 3 for track use because I can only use the Chademo adapter limited to 50,000 watts - it does work, but it appears a lunchtime charging session would be about 70 minutes for the Model 3 @ 50,000 watts - the Taycan should be fine with 30 minutes - way way better - there are no Tesla superchargers near Thunderhill (30 miles either direction north or south, but nothing close like Laguna or Buttonwillow).


Video is my best lap from the 1st morning sessions (only got one session more on that later). Track was damp, cold, and there was some traffic. The lap time from start/finish to start/finish is 2:17.xx - I lost the accurate data due to APEXPro not autosaving lap times - and I forgot to enable GPS on my GoPro so we don't have any data {sigh}.

the Lap times for the session were:

• 2:56.xx
• 2:24.xx
• 2:23.xx
• 2.23.xx
• 2.25.xx
• 2.24.xx
• 2.20.xx
• 2.17.xx <----- video clip
• 2:20.xx
• 2:50 on the in lap

Battery capacity used was 60% (on track @ 98% battery, in at 38% battery for roughly a 25 minute session.This day was meant to be a "test" for my 2018 Model 3 Performance and we will call it a successful failure (like NASA called Apollo 13) - turns out I only got the one session because during this session the factory stock brake pads which were barely used going onto track (90%+) were decimated and rubbing bare metal by the end of this _SINGLE_ session - in speaking with other "racers" after the session apparently the stock pads from Tesla will not withstand _ANY_ heavy use and just melt/disintegrate under heavy track use - ok lesson learned - I limped home relying on regen a lot to minimize the actual engagement of the friction brakes. We'll be searching for better pads and we will be back. But the factory stock pads are NOT recomended for _ANY_ track use based on my experiend. Now this is not a surprising result in that factory pads are notoriously bad from most/all car manufactures - however I have _NEVER_ had pads what wouldn't last even a single session - normally "bad" pads you'll get at least one track day (4 or 5 20 minute sessions) and then they will be done. Having the pads disintigrate in a single 25 minute track sessions for me is a surprising result. But probably appropriate for a vehicle on the street that never uses the friction brakes due to regen.

based on what I learned from this single session - 1 20 min track session is about 50% battery for the Model 3P - so you could run 2 20 min sessions (a bit of 40 amp charging between sessions) - top off with the fast charger @ Walmart in town, and come back and run another 2 sessions in the afternoon.

Tires were the stock Michellin 4S - not particuarly grippy - I was slow on this first sessions because:

1. cold morning
2. damp track
3. cold tires
4. wrong pressures
5. still learning the car on track

I'm pretty confident I could get down into the 2:12.xx arena if the brakes had lasted on this one day - and with some stickier tires this car would be sub 2:10.xx @ thunderhill, maybe even sub 2:05.xx more testing will be required to see…Tire pressures going out before the session were 36 PSI all around - when I came in pressures were 42/43 psi all around - if I had gotten a 2nd session I was going to target 38 psi HOT temps and I think the additional grip would've been good - heavy car @ 4,100 lbs don't want to drop the pressures too much.

So we'll call this my personal best for a Model 3 Performance @ Thunderhill and move on from here.

My real personal best @ Thunderhill is sub 1:58.xx times in a Porsche 911 GT3…so we know I'm capable of sub 2 min lap times - but what this car can do will require another visit with better brake pads.

daveo4porsche

here are the consumpiton pics - 1271 wh/mile while on track!!!

daveo4porsche

here is a 2:21 @ Thunderhill in the dry w/bypass - I'm not feeling too bad w/my 2:17.xx in damp conditions over the crow's nest - I'm not the driver in this video - and have no data as to car configuration - I'm looking around for some best lap times for a Model 3 @ Thunderhill East (3 mile course) - from what I can see at the moment - I might hold the track record LOL

Bob Roberts

It is so lame that the Tesla nuts can't figure out that this is the "TAYCAN & MISSION E" forum and have to post here to get attention.

daveo4porsche

it's a tesla thread - you can safely ignore it.

@Bob Roberts here is some advice ignore the thread with the word "Tesla" in them and you wont' be sorry - and quite frankly it's an EV forum and talking about the competitive landscape is acceptable - you're hatred of Tesla does not change the fact that in the EV world they are relevant - and honestly most of your posts are simply rude.

I'll happily stand by my posting history as a major contributor to this forum and yes I will call out Porsche's mistakes, Tesla's accomplishmend, and vice versa - it's an interesting time to be in the automotive space, and you have to consider all the brands to get a complete picture, only truly blinded fan boys that can not handle a little critical thinking find it offensive- and my threads and comments are not getting noted to the moderators for inappropriate behavior - so do us a favor

if the word Tesla is in the thread title don't read it - that is if you can read.

daveo4porsche

this weekend also did lead to some data regarding fast charging - and the feedback for the non-Tesla network remains "mixed"

the ONLY fast charging solution near Thunderhill is an Electrify America 4 station charging installation at the Wallmart - it opened like less than 60 days ago and is quite a good location and easy access - there are 4 350,000 watt charger and they are all CCS - and one station is CCS/Chademo - my plan was to use the Tesla Chademo adatper to fast charge the Model over lunch on the track day. There are two Superchargers bracketing Willows - one recently opened V3 charger 30 miles south of Willows, and a 2 year old veteran Supercharger in Corning 30 miles north of Willows - very effective for road trips, but not so much for a top off for a track day.

I arrived in willows on thursday the day before the track date - and topped off with Chademo the night before -charged to 100% - as alwasy the experience was less than stellar but functional:

1. the credit card reader was broken and disfuncitonal - so there was no way to activate the station "local"
2. kudos - however at least the screen told you the read was broken and recomended calling EA's customer support line
3. I was able to use my existing EA account and activate the chademo charging via the in-app "start charging session"
4. Chademo is limited to 50,000 wattss, but as you can see below I never got above 35 kW during the session - temps were below 45 degrees - so I think cold weather limited the charge rate - this lead to a less than ideal 59 minute charging session - the Taycan would clearly be superior hear depending on how the temp affects it

this was great - which meant the next day I was able to leave the hotel nearly full - drive 7 miles to Thunderhill - and top off using Thunderhill's RV NEMA 14-50 plugs before the first session @ 9 am.

I did my session - see above

and when I was leaving @ 38% battery to drive home due to the loss of brake pads, it was a bit iffy to get all the way to Vacaville, and the supercharger in Williams indicated "temporary" closure for maintance (it's a new site wonder what that was about) - with Tesla's software indicating 3% charge @ vacaville I decided to top off at EA w/Chademo before heading out

well 3rd party site strikes again - this is a different day - and the credit card reader still wasn't working - and today for some reason the App was showing NO EA chargers ANYWHERE in the country - so I couldn't use the app to start the session - ok let's call the EA customer support number

while the EA staff was pleasant - it took them 25 minutes to remotely start the charger between hold time, staff transfers to the correct person, they asking me for my account information and a delay while I had to find the charger # on the station (which is well hidden) so that they knew which charger to start for me - once they started it - it worked great…

but honestly it took 25 minutes on the phone to just get the charger to work!!! That's an entire charging session for the Taycan to 80% just on the phone.

this has got to get better.

the staff also told me the credit card reader has been broken for weeks and there is no estimated time it will be repaired, they had no explanation as to why hte app was not finding chargers on the map so I could start the session myself like I had done the previous day!!

there is a very very long ways to go with this whole fast charging thing and honestly there is a competive network that mostly "just works" - it's going to be rocky for a while - I hope they improve.

temps were warming during the day time - so I got a max charge rate of 45.75 (pretty close to the 50 kW limit of chademo) but still 11:14 for 8.4 kWh is pretty slow, and if you include the 25 minute phone call this was not a great experience - The Taycan would've charged very close to it's maximum 270 kW rate and would definately outclass the Model 3 at this charger.

daveo4porsche

NOTE: chargingin Willows is going to be great for the Taycan - there are also two 150 kW EVGo chargers being installed about 1/4 mile from the Wallmart - so there will be 6 fast charging stations the Taycan could use at thunderhill for a lunchtime top off!

Needsdecaf

Or maybe people who are likely to track the Taycan, you know, Rennlist members, would like to know how another EV fares on track? Because, you know, no one EVER posted about their Viper ACR, Corvette ZO6, McLaren 600 LT, Ferrari 430 Scud, etc. experiences in the GR3 forum. Oh no, gotta keep it all Porsche, all the time.

daveo4porsche

the Taycan should rock on track - and if any the Model 3 convinced me EV's on track can be super fun - nothing like instant torque off an apex - it's truly a thing of beauty and power - I can't wait to bring the Taycan out and see what it can do - I'm thinking 2:10 should be pretty easy for this sedan…which would be super quick for a car of it's size and weight - and super fun given all the instant power.

911therapy

Agree, Bob Roberts apparently doesnt want any knowledge or information to cloud his Porsche-limited world view. Pervasive theme in every single post..........

Thanks for posting and sharing the info Dave. I doubt I ever track a taycan or tesla....but great info if I ever do.

whiz944

On the CHAdeMO adapter, note that it is limited to 125 amps - but some CHAdeMO stations are only 100 amps or less. So it is useful to note the max current the station can deliver. (Placard on the side should state it.) The charge rate then also depends on the state of charge. Charging voltage is lower at lower SOC, and higher at higher SOC - and the power you see is, of course, based on the product of amps and volts. Some so-called "50 kW" stations are rated that with 100 amps at 500 volts - which is much higher voltage than battery packs are charged at. (Excepting Taycan at 800 volts, but that is yet again a different scenario.) At a 125 amp CHAdeMO station, and middling SOC, I've seen rates in the 42-43 kW range. I wonder if you were dealing with a 100 amp station?

Lorenfb

Yes, the charging voltage changes, but much less than the charging current during a DC QC charging process. The key parameter that varies based on SOC is the charging current.
The charging current can vary by a factor of two or more based on SOC, where as the charging voltage typically changes by less than 10-15% during the charging process.
The vehicle's BMS ECU controls both the charging current & voltage. A low SOC (20%) could have a charging current of 100 amps, whereas a SOC of 8O% might have
a charging current of less than 20-30 amps.

whiz944

A 50 kW charging rate for a 75 kWh pack is only 0.667 C. So not that big a deal for Li-ion batteries. In the case of the Model 3 LR and CHAdeMO, it is current limited at 125 amps max due to adapter limitations. As the voltage of the pack gradually rises, and the current remains fixed, the charge rate correspondingly rises up to a fairly high SOC. Then, as you note, the normal tapering via additional current limiting takes place.

Lorenfb

That's only at various SOCs of the charging process. Nice try to CYA! Again, the DCHV charging process is basically a varying current process!
As an example, the initial current for a SOC of 20% may be 100amps. When the SOC reaches 25-30% the charging current may be less 50 amps.
Obviously, the taper points are determined by the battery technology used in the vehicle. Remember, this is not a lead-acid battery charging
process as on your 944 ICEV.