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Since they are already recycling they today your claim is silly. In-fact tried and buy an old BEV battery today and you will be surprised at the cost because they are being sucked up not just from people making BEVs but as storage units for solar power. And the more that come on the market the more people will find uses for them.
Those are the real world facts TODAY.
Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla and Bollinger fan)
Re purposing isn’t exactly what I‘d call an end solution.
Recycling these batteries TODAY is an expensive, nasty and difficult process.
Typically , we have a history of dealing with expensive , nasty and difficult things by placing them on a shelf and forgetting about them.
and again this is not what Nissan is doing with these batteries…today, not tomorrow. It's also worth considering even if we place them on a shelf, they are highly modular -and once broken down he enclosures are highly recyclable and the amount of material that must be sequestered is a fraction of the volume of the battery vs. it's assembled form. But again what is happening already is these items are not ending up in land fills or being placed on a shelf. To date the vast majority of batteries are still in service, and once that have been replaced are refurbished, recycled, or repurposed for other uses - there is simply zero evidence we don't know what to do with these items and they are high valued on the secondary market…and the life span exactly matches a car so we're not talking about a volume of these items that exceeds that of normal automotive lifecycle.
What factual problem are you pointing to that is an existing problem. What factual evidence do you have that we can't solve this problem. Given that it's already being solved in a commercially viable manner - a cost that is less than the cost of a typical transmission job at 100 or 150,000 miles…
However, that all will take place in a recycling factory. The contents are now concentrated compared to processing raw ore. So not cheap - but cheaper than processing the raw materials.
Look at the metal industries, they already find recycling to be cheaper than raw materials in most cases.
Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla and Bollinger fan)
Again this is not correct, it is the form the metals are in - generally oxides and phosphates - to separate the metals requires dissolution and extraction by electrolysis. To do this commercially requires some form of acid tolerant autoclave followed by electrowinning through banked electrolytic cells.
Recycling is important in and to the "metals industry" without recycling we would be in a resource crunch. However, without mining the world we live in would not be possible. Every brick, every piece of concrete, aggregate, iron, aluminium, etc etc are developed from mined product.
And to cap it off recycling is additive to new product and in some cases is at best marginally cost effective.
Batteries are not highly modular - take one apart, let us know how it goes oh and watch out for the organics.......look up dimethylacetamide.......
here is the tear down of the Chevy Bolts battery - looks pretty modular to me - really not that bad of a process - remove the cells and refurbish/recycle/reuse and the rest of the enclosure is ready to be recycled.
all those orange cables are high quality copper and quite easy to recover.
the cells are easily isolated in a tear down from the other untainted enclosure materials, meaning you can tear down EV batteries, separate the LiON modules, and proceed to recover the non battery elements for future use - battery enclosures are steel and aluminum and internal copper, all highly valued recycled metals…tear down of the individual cells would be more complex, but again Nissan is already engaging in a commercially viable refurbished battery business.
mmmmm - its the inside thats the problem not the casing (other than having to break the casing open to get at the cathode, electrolyte and to deal with the separators).
Its a a question of economics, its technically possible to recycle certain components but its very expensive to do so.
Currently yes, but economies of scale will certainly come into play in the future. Also as these batteries become more popular, newer, more efficient and cheaper methods will be developed - just like every technology before has done.
Currently yes, but economies of scale will certainly come into play in the future. Also as these batteries become more popular, newer, more efficient and cheaper methods will be developed - just like every technology before has done.
hmmm you are trying to recycle metal oxides and phosphates that sit within (commonly) an organic base that can cause fertility issues and other problems.
The problem is one of chemical kinetics and is analogous to the lack of understanding about battery energy density which is largely governed by well understood chemical physics e.g. You can only act on electrons in certain ways.
Long - short, we know how to get the metals out, we have known how to do this for a long time.
Groundhog, you are wrong and you know it. That is why you keep changing the arguments you use as they get pointed out they are wrong.
Is pumping toxic and green house gases in the air we breath that important to you? Is putting money into the hands of the oil industry so critical?
Let assume the worse you claim comes true, all the batteries get plied up in a storage section.
Does this release greenhouse gases into the air? NO!
Does this release cancer compounds into the air we breath? NO!
Does this cause oil spills is there is an accident in transportation? NO!
Does this cause pollution is rain water? NO!
@earl pottinger you're new here - so I'll help out - groundhog doesn't believe several things
1. the rise in CO2 is caused by humans
2. the increase in CO2 isn't really a problem;em
3. the earth has been here before with these levels of CO2 and it survived so it's no big deal
4. because eV's are heavier they don't actually get 3 times more efficiency
it's been discussed at length - I'm just trying to save you some time in convincing him - I'll continue to point out where people are wrong or misinformed, but we're not changing any minds today.
It is largely uneconomic to recycle (non Pb acid) rechargeable batteries for the reasons I have outlined. I have actually explained to you the structure of these batteries, what the key components are, what form they take and how it is technically possible to recycle them. I have also pointed out other elements of some of these batteries which can cause problems such as the use of certain organics often as electrolytes.
These are all facts.
Originally Posted by daveo4porsche
@earl pottinger you're new here - so I'll help out - groundhog doesn't believe several things
1. the rise in CO2 is caused by humans
2. the increase in CO2 isn't really a problem;em
3. the earth has been here before with these levels of CO2 and it survived so it's no big deal
4. because eV's are heavier they don't actually get 3 times more efficiency
it's been discussed at length - I'm just trying to save you some time in convincing him - I'll continue to point out where people are wrong or misinformed, but we're not changing any minds today.
(1) CO2 levels have varied significantly over time, in fact CO2 levels have been up to 4 or 5 times higher than present - this is a fact
(2) CO2 management is the problem - thanks to the vast amounts of pollution generated by the US and China
(3) The earth has been around for over 4.5 billion years it will around for at least another 4 billion years and temperatures and sea levels have been rising since the end of the last ice age
(4) A heavy vehicle requires more energy to move from A to B than a light vehicle
again all facts dave - not politics, facts.
So Dave and Earl - some education for you
(1) The climate has been warming rapidly since the end of the last ice age
(2) CO2 levels have been up to 4 to 5 times higher than current levels and life forms were prolific during those highs.
Now, would you like me to explain why Ti lined autoclaves may be required for the recycling of cathode and non-organic based electrolyte . I can give you a capital intensity estimate if you like (based on throughput).
Ask your mate Elon what he's going to do about it, after all he's a genius and a Fellow of the Royal Society - I can see it now "recycling secured"
Facts with no context - we explained how while an EV used to be heavier (model 3 is about same weight as a BMW 340xi) - it only takes more energy to accelerate - at steady state weight is far less of an issue — and EV’s use less total power to go from point a to point B than an ICE car - that is also a fact.
and a billion years of earth history has nothing to do with it’s suitability for our species habitation over the next two hundred or so...again a fact.
but I’m still comfortable being aligned with the consensus 98% view, and you can continue to align your self with the 2% view and misconstrue acceralertion energy consumption with actual consumption over a distance when acceleration (change in velocity) goes to zero while the car cruises at 60 mph for two hours, no acceleration.
@earl pottinger you're new here - so I'll help out - groundhog doesn't believe several things
1. the rise in CO2 is caused by humans
2. the increase in CO2 isn't really a problem;em
3. the earth has been here before with these levels of CO2 and it survived so it's no big deal
4. because eV's are heavier they don't actually get 3 times more efficiency
it's been discussed at length - I'm just trying to save you some time in convincing him - I'll continue to point out where people are wrong or misinformed, but we're not changing any minds today.
While I one of those who do not want to blame all the warming on people. IT IS WARMING UP. I went on a cruise to Alaska, the ship went to Glacier Park at the end of the inlet were these huge glaciers and a HUGE boulder sticking 20-30 feet out of the ice. Last year the captain said you could just barely see the boulder INSIDE the ice, one year later it was sticking out.
Also when I was a child in Toronto I remember the coughing and choking I would get every time a blue-smoker of a car or truck went by, today because of emission tests it is no longer so bad, but the exhaust is still of dangerous garbage. Half of my friends have cancer or are recovering from treatment for it. He should lock himself in a garage with a running ICE car if he thinks it is so harmless.
And of-course the Earth can survive higher CO2, just not the people on it.
And if EVs are not more efficient then no-one would buy them, what is he going to do in the future when no-one want his gas car for trade-in. Shake a stick at them?
Facts without context - interesting way of looking at it - which part of the the current battery technology do you want to learn about? I gave you the basics (anode, cathode, electrolyte, separators, composition etc). I gave you some insights in to recycling and why its difficult . I offered to tell you how much one type of technological approach would cost - I even told you about the nasty organics inside some of the batteries.
What is abundantly clear is
(1) neither of you know anything about batteries or their composition or their construction - you have both amply demonstrated that
(2) I presented you with two simple diagrams - (a) one showing recent earth history and temperature and (b) one showing CO2 levels since the Cambrian "life explosion" more than 500my ago.
These two diagrams are part of the scientific consensus . They are not disputed.
Here's a little homework:
(a) . Why has the earths climate been warming rapidly for the last 12,000 years or so.
(b) . Why did the earths climate rapidly cool leading to a long period of "ice ages"
(c) . Why was life abundant and thriving in periods of history where CO2 concentrations were substantially higher than they are today.
(3) and despite the empty rhetoric, its still too expensive to recycle rechargeable batteries as found in EVs.
(4) and Earl - half of your friends are dying of cancer, sorry to hear that
(5) Earl I don't engage in name calling - I don't happen to agree with you or Dave that EVs are the solution to the worlds problems in relation to CO2 emissions. I have no interest in Tesla or the shoddy product that sits near the bottom of CRs reliability index (not my finding - a finding by Consumer reports and others) or Musk - a man found wanting by the SEC (and fined accordingly, found by the SEC and approved in Court). I am not interested in your politics.
(6) . However, I am interested in real solutions to real problems - none of which you offer as you're simply consumers of product.
and (7) - Earl your quote, "wow he is that dumb" - no Earl, thats a reflection on you and your lack of insight and knowledge. Perhaps a little introspection on your part is warranted.
"He should lock himself in a garage with a running ICE car" . Thanks Earl, might just do that what do you think Dave?
10-18-2018, 11:44 PM
oh and watch out for the organics.......look up dimethylacetamide.......
what do you think Dave?