daveo4porsche

most EV's these days have a 8 year unlimited mile drive train warranty - the data to date demonstrates that EV's are far less expensive to maintain, and the parts that they do share with ICE automobiles are all in the 100,000-250,000 miles category - all things break given enough time - brakes for example with regenerative braking wear far less than on a gas car....the only data we have from the Tesla Model S fleet is some taxi Tesla's have had brake jobs done at 250,000 miles, and a new battery at 200,000 miles (not due to failure but they wanted the 8% battery range loss back after 200,000 miles cause they were a taxi - the range loss is largely attributed to that particular car being charged exclusively by superchargers for it's entire 200,000 mile usage, not a common scenario) - I've yet to meet any Tesla owner who's done a brake job, and the local Sunnyvale shop says across the entire fleet of Silly-con valley teslas brake jobs are uncommon, but they didn't have any data, the mechanics say they can't remember doing any brake jobs…it's very very uncommon.

there is ample evidence that EV's have lower maintain costs and the systems are simpler, yes they are modular, but that means if they break you simply replace them saving on vast billable hours attempting to diagnose...

there is NO evidence EV's suffer from the maintenance costs associated with an ICE, and there is evidence to date demonstrates they are actually far less costly.

my brakes for example at 52,000 miles on my P85D have worn to 13 mm, 14 mm was factory zero miles upon delivery

the battery cooling system for the battery on the Chevy Bolt for example is a sealed system and first recommended maintenance is 150,000 miles to swap the fluid - $75 service including labor at your local Chevy dealer - this is the _ONLY_ factory maintenance in the owner's manual for the Chevy Bolt - other than rotating the tires which wear the same rate as gas cars.

the fluids that are present in EV's last longer due to less thermal stress - they aren't subject to the extreme heat of an ICE engine and last quite a bit longer due to that fact.

if you break it down the stuff present on an EV that it shares with an ICE car isn't the stuff that commonly breaks, and it also lacks nearly all the stuff that you maintain on a ICE car (exhaust systems, catalytic converters, O2 sensors, thermostats, clutches, power steering pumps, spark plugs, coils, fuel injectors, fluids, water pump, fuel pump, starter, oil pumps, belts, hoses, transmissions, oil, air compressor, timing belts/chains, valves, and the entire complexity of 800 or so parts in a flat 6 911 engine, alternator just to name a few things missing in action on an EV)

in the ROLF category however EV's do share the failure rate of 12 volt batteries that ICE cars do - nearly all EV's I'm ware of have a 12 volt battery. This battery shares two main purposes:

1. it's a bridge to the off the shelf parts most EV's use that are 12 volt to match the rest of the industry - it's a compatibility component for the rest of the automotive industry supply chain
2. it's the main "switch" control power system for the main traction 400 volt DC battery - so that the car is not energized with 400 volt DC current unless it's being actually used - the 12 volt system runs the ECU which controls the main relay to enable/disable the 400 volt subsystem - if the ECU lacks 12 volt power it's dead and can't tell the main battery to turn on…so yes you do need to occasionally jump start an EV even if the main battery is completely full - we'll see what Porsche does in this space.

12 volt system is maintained by a DC to DC system that converts 400 volt DC to 12 volt DC - it interesting to note that there are two different philosophies to date with eV vendors, when do you charge the 12 Volt battery?

1. only while it's plugged in and being charged
2. continuously from the main large battery

Tesla and Nissan are in category #1
Chevy Bolt is in category #2

Tesla did have a high failure rate early in the Model S life span of the DC to DC converter which was causing people to experience a high rate of dead 12 volt batteries - they seems to have gotten their arm's around that problem and there is nothing on the forums these days indicating a high rate of failure - all of the initial problems were fixed under warranty.

The Chevy Bolt has a 1600 watt DC to DC inverter which runs continuously if the car is "on" and not in park - this means in a power outage you can hook up your favorite 1500 DC/AC inverter from Amazon for $89 and have 60 kWh of AC power during a power outage - there is a whole thread about it on the Bolt forums - it make the Bolt an excellent camping vehicle.

so when your 12 volt battery fails just like it does on a ICE car you can't "start" your EV, just like a gas car, and it needs to be jumped just like a gas car. I'm on my 3rd 12 volt battery in my P85D, and my 2nd 12 volt battery in my Bolt (warranty replacement) - but the failure rate of 12 volt batteries is definitely the same as gas cars, and has a similar impact, but you can't pop-the-clutch and push start an EV

Tires, windshield wipers all wear on EV's, the rest of the stuff is simpler and last longer on EV's has been my experience in the past 5 years - and the Leaf fleet which is nearly 7 years old at this time are showing virtually no mechanical issues, other than Nissan's problems with the battery - but that is a design issue on Nissan's part - the cost to maintain a Leaf is way way way cheaper than the equivalent Nissan gas cars - I know I was talking to a Nissan dealership service manager last week and they have noticed the dramatically lower service revenue associated with the Leaf - I was there to get a new key fob that had been run over in the driveway.

whiz944

Friction brakes tend to last a very long time in electrified vehicles because the vast majority of braking is done regeneratively. There is one Volt on voltstats ("sparkie") that has over 400,000 miles and is still on the original brakes. Power steering is electric, not hydraulic. (The first major non-warranty repair on my 944 way back when was a blown power steering rack seal. A $1k repair in 1990. I've had to fix various PS leaks and hoses in other of my vehicles as well...) The A/C compressor is also run by an electric motor - which has its advantages over a engine driven one. Cooling systems - not subjected to temperature extremes, and potentially leaky intake/head gaskets like with an ICE. But you are right - a lot of the other non-drivetrain parts are more or less the same.

Solid state and fewer moving parts are generally more reliable than more of them. And like an ICE car, there are wrecked cars with parts available cheap too.

Needsdecaf

If you are responding to me, I agree with you. That ironbutt trip is a once a year trip, so it's not the primary driving factor of our use case. Nonetheless, it is part of the use case. We probably could adapt and do it in a Model X if the damned thing wasn't so hideously expensive (and hideously ugly, IMO, sorry). My wife's daily trip is very short and easily could be accomplished by an EV.

But being in a part of the world where things are VERY far apart, the flexibility our long range ICE vehicle gives us, while not used more than a few times a year, is very welcome.

daveo4porsche

I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time - I just built a Cayenne e-Hybrid - and it spec'd out to $132,xxx pretty easily which makes it more expensive than a Model X 100D (not the P100D, the 100D) - and the Model X is quicker and funner to drive IMHO due to the instant torque and low CG...I'm just putting that out there a data point...people keep saying Tesla's are expensive, but when you go to build any actual car that is similar to them the price difference in my experience isn't that vast…Model 3 vs. BMW 3 series, Model X to any other Lux SUV that can do sub 5 second 0-60 and carry 5-7 people.

https://www.porsche.com/microsite/po...px?c=/PKE5RG17

I respect your informed decision about your needs - I've got 100,000's of miles on pure EV's and rarely find the charging situation to inhibit me- but different strokes for different folks.

daveo4porsche

I just built a 75D X which is zero-60 in 4.7 sec and can drive 240 miles on a single charge - premium interior and auto-pilot (no full self driving - but can OTA it later for $$) is $95,050 _BEFORE_ tax rebates from the Feds/State and the various incentives...$111,550 for the Model X 100D (before incentives) which is $20,000 less than the Cayenne I built.

you're hard pressed to built out a Cayenne e-Hybrid for $95,xxx - and can easily exceed that.

just saying - doesn't have to be your cup of tea- but for the category I'll politely push back on the "too expensive" lable - they are pricy, but no more so than anything with their performance specs and capabilities (88 cubic feet of cargo space with the 2nd row folded down - and still a sub 5 second 0-60 time),

daveo4porsche

here is a Cayenne with only the options to make it "equal" to the Model X 75D - now the Cayenne is better in some options and worse in others, but these are roughly equivalent creature comforts on the two cars - both have adaptive cruise control, land keeping, and leather interiors

http://www.porsche-code.com/PKXNLT94

the Cayenne is 100,700 which is about $5000 more than the X before the State/Federal incentives - we'll call it a draw

and NO I am not trying to start a conversation about Tesla quality vs. Porsche quality....we all have opinions, but the pricing says an X is no more expensive that a well optioned Cayenne e-Hybrid - it is in fact less expensive.

limegreen

Posted by Daveo4porsche " there is ample evidence that EV's have lower maintain costs and the systems are simpler, yes they are modular, but that means if they break you simply replace them saving on vast billable hours attempting to diagnose... "

If we are talking strictly maintenance : seeing that the modern ICE vehicle requires little more than an oil change every 10k miles an engine air filter every 30-50k , spark plugs and belts every 100 k and follows the same extended and lifetime fluid intervals for virtually everything else I wouldn't say that EV's offer significant saving there at all. They likely still have a cabin air filter, have brake fluid that is hygroscopic and they should be receiving the same frequent and periodic mechanical inspections that an ICE vehicle does, after all they are being driven and used just the same.

If you are including service or repair work I would argue there is virtually NO evidence that they are less costly in that respect because statistics show that almost NO ONE is driving them. EV's represent less than 2% of vehicles on the road in america TODAY and 5 years ago represented such a small fraction that it was practically 0% of vehicles on the road. So that means that less than 2 out of every 100 cars are EV and that most of them are less than 5 years old. Also, I'd wager because they aren't typically the only car in a household because of their limited range that they also are driven fewer miles per year than say the average ICE vehicle that is used every day. Does that sound like ample data to draw any conclusions from about the potential reliability and longevity of an EV? When is the last time you have heard of a modern car's engine blowing up that wasn't a Subaru? It doesn't happen often and the most common and expensive repairs on an modern ICE vehicle typically do not involve the physical engine or transmission itself but rather involve electrical, modular components, sound familiar? ABS and stability control modules / pumps , control units , electrical sunroof and tailgate lifts, sensors for the drive train, suspension ( EDC, ride height sensors) , braking ( speed sensors) , dynamic headlights , backup cameras, side cameras etc. and EV's have all of those same items many of which are extremely expensive.

Also ,when something is modular , while it does save on production costs and possibly labor costs down the road , any of that savings will most likely pale in comparison to the expense of the module component itself which if we are talking drive train may cost upwards of 10,000+ dollars. As is often with the case with modular components, these large expensive assembles are being removed and scraped when they go wrong due to the failure of a small and inexpensive non serviceable component inside which is incredibly wasteful and resource consuming which seems to contradict the Eco friendly goals of an EV.

Outside of sunny, perfect California and particularly in areas where there is something called COLD WEATHER we have what are known as pot holes and snow. Now because your unfamiliar with these in that perfect happy bubble that is California, let me briefly summarize:

Potholes are craters in the road surface, typically found on highways when you are traveling 80 miles per hour in the dark that when struck hard enough can damage wheels, wheel bearings, steering and suspension components , now you didn't mention it before, so I am to assume that EV's are so advanced that they simply float across the road? Or can I safely assume that they have the same exact wheels, wheel bearings, control arms, tie rods, electric steering racks , struts and shock absorbers that any current ICE car has that are all prone to wear out and fail when subject to normal wear and accelerated greatly by rough roads? Those are all capable of being very expensive components and repairs by the way but I'm sure you'll reply with " EV's don't use any of those things because they float across the roads and generate so little wear to the roads themselves that they will actually be eligible for tax breaks in the future "

Next we have cold weather, now that is when the temperature drops below freezing and we get what is called snow and ice. This type of weather causes all types of things to go wrong , especially electrical components like batteries but let's not dive into that. Lets talk about what the snow brings.... Salt covered roads in many parts of the country. You see salt eats metal, particularly steel found in all those above suspension ball-joints and fastening hardware components and also and more importantly brake discs , brake caliper housings ,pistons and brake pad backing plates are commonly made of steel as well. So while in sunny, perfect California your getting supposedly 250k miles out of a set of Tesla brakes , in the real world, for a car that lives and drives in a cold climate , particularly one that sits outside, you won't have any brakes left at half that mileage because they have likely rotted off the car.... Next you'll tell me that "EV's generate an electromagnetic force that repels moisture and salt away so this has been proven to be a non issue "

An EV certainly appears much more simple in theory which works as a great marketing tool for the face value consumer but it is still an automobile and shares virtually all of the same components save for the physical engine and transmission components. It has motor(s) that can burn out , a cooling system that can leak and fail , internal bearings and drive components that can fail just the same as their ICE counterparts do. It also has a more complicated HVAC system because it needs to produce heat and A/C in ways that differ from the simpler ICE setup. Also, even a small child knows that water and electricity do not mix so the idea of passing coolant through all of these high voltage components will likely produce leaks and failures in ways that haven't even been discovered yet, but then again how could they be discovered yet right? These cars barely represent a fraction of all the cars on the road and have been around for such a short time that I bet the large majority of them have so few miles on them and are driven on such nice, clean roads that they look like they have just rolled off the showroom floor.... Which is the perfect time to predict long term maintenance and repair costs as well as long term reliability , at least, if your in the sales and marketing department that is...

daveo4porsche

we do have several million EV's on the roads - Tesla is pushing close to a million by itself, and they also exist in cold weather - so far there is no evidence that they require the same maintain - and the oil change theory you epouse never works out for my ICE cars....

you have no personal experience or data - you have your supposition that they aren't cheaper. I have 5 years of personal experience that they are cheaper and I have the eV forums and their experience to back it up along with the service experience of Leaf, Tesla, Bolt co-workers and co-owners....

do you have data that EVs are the same cost to maintain as gas cars? Or are you just "afraid" they are the same cost to maintain. Because to date virtually no one I've spoken to shares you opinion, but I'm open to data.

whiz944

limegreen: You mention cold climes. Interestingly one of the bigger world wide markets for EVs has been Norway - definitely snows there....

Actually one of the neat things about EVs is that you can remotely precondition the cabin while it is still on 'shore power' (or not.) No need to fire up an ICE - which obviously would be dangerous in an enclosed garage. So in the winter you can enjoy a nice warm cabin from the start. No need to freeze for five or ten minutes while the engine warms up. Also the car runs just as good in the cold as it does any other time of the year. None of that shaking and poor power delivery that an ICE has when cold. That said, yes a cabin heater can draw a lot of power. Up to 5-6 kW in my Volt in MAX mode. But there are ways to mitigate it. As I just mentioned, preconditioning while still plugged in is one way. Another feature some EVs have is using the cars HVAC system as a heat pump - which reduces power needs in moderately cold temps. Finally, most EVs have seat, and often steering wheel, heaters. After preconditioning, they are often all many folks need to stay comfortable - yet use about 1/100th the power the cabin heater would use. This final feature sometimes surprises folks - as seat and steering wheel heaters are usually considered luxury features in ICE cars, but a basic item to all but the least expensive EVs.

limegreen

Needsdecaf

limegreen

Ungjaevel

Not a problem to me, or any of my friends/colleagues here in Norway.

The thing is: If you buy an ICE car... you don't have to think, just start whenever wherever.
If you have an EV - you have to think for 2 seconds where you park, where you will charge, how you will drive.

Those 2 seconds of brain activity aren't that hard, and once you get into it it comes natural.
So no, it's not realistic. Not even in -40*C. (But yeah sure, you use energy that could otherwise be used to getting a mile longer.)

wogamax

RE: "governmental ordination". Do you balance that with VW's ordination of the car you are going to drive? A Ford truck, when they stop making cars, maybe? Is it the cheap gas?

There are compelling substitutes to ICE, that likely would not have achieved scale without government. The Prius/918 argument. I'd rather judge the tech I want by its merits, and less where it came from.

RE: "Remove ICE fast" isn't properly being paranoid. You'd have realized this fear more over the last ~20years, if you wanted something other than ICE, that wasn't allowed out of R&D. The fast part, the "diesel bans" are probably more a reaction to how slow things are going.

Michael1

I'm not an EV hater or an EV lover. I like EVs for certain situations, and for other situations, not.

Commuting = Yes
Running Errands = Yes
Long Distance Travel = No
Blasting Up Winding Mountain Roads = No
Track Use = No