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yea, i think it is some sort of high-efficiency tires with the model 3s come with.
The stock 18s are very, very far from a performance tire. Even the 19s are well below what Porsche typically equips. I would think about a set of rims (19s or 20s) and some real rubber. The 20” Michelin that is optional on the Performance model looks like an impressive compromise; it would transform the handling. It also seems like additional grip may make the stability control more consistent.
A comparison between the 18s and 19s (personally I still find the 19s somewhat underwhelming, so I’d try to upgrade past that if you do make a change):
Going from a Macan S to a model 3 RWD my biggest disappointment is the steering of Tesla, and two other small ones are the lack of traction in Tesla and you can't turn off the traction control in model 3. I think it would have been way more fun if I can turn off the traction control (then I can slide around a bit when I wish). I once tried to corner at a relatively fast speed and then in the middle of the corner give it some "gas", then the rear wheel surprisingly managed to lose traction and the car started to go sideways for like half a second. Next, the traction control fixed it. I was very surprised that the model 3 has enough power for the rear wheels to lose traction, and I wasn't even going full throttle when it happened.
On the "Driving" menu, you can select "Sport" to give the steering some extra weight. You can also select "Slip start" to partially turn off the traction control nanny. And yes, the stock tires are decent daily drivers, but definitely not track worthy.
Folks who purchased the Performance+ version of the P3D will be getting a "Track mode" option with the V9 software update. It is due out in the next week or two. Apparently it provides the driver a lot of control over traction control and other things.
On the "Driving" menu, you can select "Sport" to give the steering some extra weight. You can also select "Slip start" to partially turn off the traction control nanny. And yes, the stock tires are decent daily drivers, but definitely not track worthy.
Folks who purchased the Performance+ version of the P3D will be getting a "Track mode" option with the V9 software update. It is due out in the next week or two. Apparently it provides the driver a lot of control over traction control and other things.
That is one thing car fans will have to realize, unlike before when you had to make hardware changes to your car to get certain changes, many times if what you are asking for makes it to the manufacturer, they can make software changes for you to add features that you and they think the hardware can handle. Sure you already do software changes to modern cars, but the electric cars have far more functions under computer control.
Right now we see Tesla already doing it for their cars, but by next year I expect both Porsche and Jaguar to listen to their customers and add more options to how their car can handle.
I understand that charging speed will increase on the I-Pace with just a software change for example.
Think carefully, who knows what you can do to make you car better in the future with the right software update.
That is one thing car fans will have to realize, unlike before when you had to make hardware changes to your car to get certain changes, many times if what you are asking for makes it to the manufacturer, they can make software changes for you to add features that you and they think the hardware can handle. Sure you already do software changes to modern cars, but the electric cars have far more functions under computer control.
Right now we see Tesla already doing it for their cars, but by next year I expect both Porsche and Jaguar to listen to their customers and add more options to how their car can handle.
I understand that charging speed will increase on the I-Pace with just a software change for example.
Think carefully, who knows what you can do to make you car better in the future with the right software update.
Tesla has been doing over-the-air updates of the cars since Roadster days. For example if you bought a Model S in 2012, it is usually running the latest software updates - with many features and performance enhancements added along the way. In the case of my Model 3, there have been three updates just since I bought it in July. They included a few new features and some internal autopilot enhancements. The upcoming v9 is going to have a lot of new features in it, in particular bringing some displays (energy display, web browser, etc) that the Model S/X have had to the Model 3 - harmonizing the software and UI. Also some major new navigation and autopilot features. (And, of course, "track mode" for P3D+ owners.) The update process does ask you for permission and typically does it at 3 AM (user adjustable.) It is conceivable that there are a few owners who don't allow their cars to be updated. But IMHO one would be silly not to.
Update: I just completed a quick work trip to Bakersfield with my model 3: ~540 miles round trip. At the speeds I was traveling at (on the high end of traffic) the car was getting 77% of the advertised range per mile, so 240 miles instead of the nominal 310. This meant that even if I'd started with a full charge (I didn't) I could not have made one way without stopping at a supercharger without slowing down.
Luckily there were 6 well placed superchargers along the route to choose from. As the hotel I stayed at didn't have charging I made use of four of them to complete the trip. I could easily have done it in two, but more shorter stops seem better- they not only break the trip up but the car charges much faster when the battery is empty vs full.
Total time at superchargers was roughly an hour and 20 minutes, but I returned with 150 miles of range left, so I could have cut this to an hour flat if I'd been trying. Compare this with 1-2 gas stops in a typical car and you get a difference of around +50 minutes on a 7 hour drive time trip, though in all likelihood I'd also have driven slightly faster in a gas car in some areas rather than watching my speed for range. Overall I suspect taking the Tesla (to a hotel that didn't have overnight charging) added an hour to the trip.
In this case I had an hour to spare, and much of that time was spent grabbing breakfast or lunch- very smooth overall. Had I been more pressed for time it could easily have been a problem. Overall I consider it a success. I'll try to find a hotel with overnight charging next time, but even without that I'll try to take the Tesla over our Audi next time... assuming I've got the extra ~45 minutes or so to spare. For this type of use charging speed really does matter, and Porsche's 800V offering will be welcome if it's widely available. I saw an indicated 463 mph charge rate at one stop, but even at that pace the charge time adds up.
I've found 1-2 supercharger stops/day to really not be a problem and not significantly change the over drive time - and given the infrequency of it the advantages of an EV overrule the occasional road trip problems - as documented in my 1820 mile trip with the Model X this past summer.
the real question is the availability of fast chargers and Tesla has a huge lead…and it's getting bigger.
Update: I just completed a quick work trip to Bakersfield with my model 3: ~540 miles round trip. At the speeds I was traveling at (on the high end of traffic) the car was getting 77% of the advertised range per mile, so 240 miles instead of the nominal 310. This meant that even if I'd started with a full charge (I didn't) I could not have made one way without stopping at a supercharger without slowing down.
I always stop for food at either Harris Ranch or Kettleman in an ICE vehicle. So for me there would be no difference between ICE or Tesla.
Luckily there were 6 well placed superchargers along the route to choose from. As the hotel I stayed at didn't have charging I made use of four of them to complete the trip. I could easily have done it in two, but more shorter stops seem better- they not only break the trip up but the car charges much faster when the battery is empty vs full.
Yes! The charge rate starts to taper after the battery is like 60-70% charged. Beyond about 80% you may as well be using L2 charging. (People have charted this in detail over on the TMC forum. I'm speaking more generally.) So the game for optimal drive time is to make it as far as you can on the initial charge. Then charge enough to stay below the taper point - yet make it to the next Supercharger with some cushion. If the battery is big enough, or in the case of I-5 where the Supercharger sites are somewhat closely spaced, you can skip a Supercharger or two - while still charging at max speed.
Total time at superchargers was roughly an hour and 20 minutes, but I returned with 150 miles of range left, so I could have cut this to an hour flat if I'd been trying.
Your goal is to arrive home with _way_ fewer than 150 miles remaining. That is about 50% charged!
It is too bad you didn't stay at a place that offered Destination Charging. There is one place in L.A. that I stay at a lot. Last time I was there, I talked with the manager about how great it would be if they offered some charging facilities for EV drivers. Some of his competitors have already done so. He was quite interested - so we'll see if it turns into anything.
Also it never hurts to just ask at the front desk. Sometimes the maintenance guy can find a 120v receptacle you can plug in to. Even a lowly 5-15 receptacle will give you 30-40 miles of charge overnight. Note that these are usually 20 amp receptacles, so the optional 5-20 adapter may be a good thing to carry in your charging kit to kick it up to more like 50-60 miles.
Track report from Thunderhill Nov. 9th - Non-Track mode assessment - Track Mode had not be released as of this date (or downloaded to my particular car)
100% stock - no upgrades - factory stock performance Michelins 20's - The Model 3 performance is a decent (not good, decent) track car. It handles beautifully and lack of body roll and the low CG make it easy to place on the track. Turn in was adequate, and smooth/instant acceleration make it easy to drive and the lack of any shifting is one less thing for the driver to worry about. The lack of engine noise allows you to really "hear" the tire grip and make adjustment appropriately. An experienced race driver or advance track rat can easily overwhelm this car and it will not meet their expectations as a replacement for a track toy, but is probably better than they would expect it to be. Power is smooth and ample and you can easily over drive the car on the front straight of Thunderhill - speed at the end of the straight without trying too hard was 125 to 130 mph - but at that point you've gone too deep in the braking zone for the stock brakes to truly slow the car down for a proper line through turn 1 - ask me how I know that - so the "upgraded" brakes are still not up to the task if you're going to drive this car at 8.5-10/10ths.
The Model 3 did way better than my Model S, and I never encountered any thermal limits @ 9 am session on a 68 F day, my Model S would thermal limit itself by turn 9 on first out lap - the Model 3 ran the entire set of laps with no thermal limiting, and track mode promises more battery cooling - based on this I think Tesla is well positioned for a standard 25-30 minute HPDE session, and I'm betting the upcoming roadster will do just fine as well.
I had empty track between turn 9 & 10 once, and really really punched it and then having no cars in front or behind me I really really laid in to the brakes, full ABS engagement - full stop from 115 mph was drama free, straight, with very little complaints from the car, easy to control and stopping power was adequate - a massive plumb of smoke was emitted from the front brakes at the end of this affair, and I think doing that over and over would roast the stock performance brakes, I feel that while the car performed adequately the one really hard braking event causing the smoke indicates the brakes are mid-grade, and not truly up to the task with an advanced driver.
Based on my limited non-track mode testing I consider the model 3 to be about the same as any 4 door 3,6xx lbs street car that you bring to the track, it has some pluses and some minuses but overall it's a decent car on track and super fun to drive if you don't push it really really hard - 7-8/10th is this car's sweet spot. It's is overspec for a novice/intermediate driver and they will not have any problems - and the instant and very easily controlled torque makes the car a real hoot off the apex of any corner - a big brake upgrade would make this car much more capable - the brakes are simply not up the task if you're advance driving pushing for fractional lap times.
Having driven lots of student cars the Model 3 is in the mix of any decent street car that one would bring to the track, better than most, but not top tier by any stretch of the imagination - but way way way way better than the Model S so Tesla is to be commended for the across the board improvement the Model 3 represents. Performance is smooth and consistent and lack of any thermal limiting is an excellent sign - and if you simply drive at 7-8/10th and still with in the car's energy budget from a stopping point of view it's super fun and easy to drive! For the occasional recreational track day this car is a hoot and fun enough that you won't be left disappointed, but it's not hard core by any stretch of the imagination.
Charge management: the 25 minute HOD sessions sapped 18% battery - against a 75 kWh battery that is 13.5 kWh - let's call it 15 kWh - a straight 5 session day would mean 90% battery used for an entire track day. that means you probably need a near by supercharger (less than 30 miles) for the end of the day or you need to charge during the day. Thunderhilll has NEMA 14-50 outlets for RV hooks up and I charged the car between sessions - Thunderhills's charging system delivered 208 volts @ 40 amps - or 8.32 kW - in the typical 40 minutes between sessions that would a return of 5.492 kWh between sessions or about 1/3 of your consumption - making each track session really cost 10 kWh. Include a 1:20 charge session for lunch break - that's another 11 kWh over lunch.
see following post for calc's on battery usage from a track day…
net energy budget leaving the track - 34 kWh in the battery - about about 120-136 miles range to find a supercharger or get home.
I received Track Mode software today (1 day too late) and I've signed up for a track day at Laguna Fri. Nov 16th - I'll bring the 3 purely to play with track mode. I don't expect track mode to "fix" the under-spec brakes, especially at Laguna, but I think it will be fun. I'm going to also be at Laguna with PCA Diablo on Monday the 19th with the GT3 - it will be a nice back to back comparison, for which I expect my track prepped 991.2 GT3 to easily outclass the Model 3.
I've done some testing with track mode on some locations around my work office today and here are my impressions in a non-track environment
greater regenerative bias to the front motor - causes greater weight transfer, making turn in more responsive
relaxing of the stability control the car is "looser" in the rear end but not in a bad way, car rotates and turns much more crisply
I could NOT get the car in thermal limit mode, and I really really really tried, but temps are mild today
all and in all the car is just a bit "crisper" and more responsive to steering input with turns being tighter and front end track being more immediate.
more limited wheel slippage under track mode vs. normal mode, so car has more a loose ICE feel, you feel you have more control and can cause things to happen.
So far I have 3,000 miles on the Model 3 performance and it has exceeded all my expectations, this is a game changing car and pretty decent for the price - it's fairly easy to option a BMW 3 into the same price or more than the Model 3 and I'd much rather drive the Model 3.
As a track toy, it can be a fun car to track, but not a serious car to track. It's not underpowered, but it is under braked, over limiting due to thermal management seems to be under control, and it's low CG, ample/instant power, and excellent steering and handling characteristics make this a super fun car to track, even if it may not be the absolute quickest lap time. Anyone driving this car on track would have a hoot if you go in and just want to have some fun running it around the track. It does however require an experience EV driver and a solid charging plan to manage the battery burn down during the day, and most tracks don't have sufficient charging infrastructure at the track to keep pace with the car's consumption rates. I was able to charge my Model 3 overnight prior to going to Thunderhill, and arrived early morning, found an RV spot, and plugged in for the morning pre-track period. The key will be arriving at the track with a full or nearly full battery, and work through out the day to add power back the battery after each session.
I was at Thunderhill participating in the MSF Level II instructor certification - so I was in the car with a fair number of advanced instructors riding in the passenger seat. These are experience track rats who work for HOD as instructors, many have race experience, and vast experience with a wide range of both race cars and consumer cars and they've seen nearly everything brought to the track. But few have any EV experience, and if they did it's been tainted by the Model S, so they all had low expectations. All of them were impressed and thought the Model 3 was hoot. Several were blown away, and engaged me with deep questions post session, and we had a meaningful converstations about the pro's and con's. All agreed it would a nearly perfect car for novice/intermediate driver, and it's instant torque and handling characteristics impressed all of them. All in all nearly everyone came away with a good impression and experience, and if you consider the car for what it is and what's supposed to be it's a pretty good car on track, although it could be better.
I don't plan to get rid of my GT3, and the Model 3 is certainly no substitute, but for the occasional track day where I'm doing full time instructing and just want to run in a couple of sessions "for fun" - the Model 3 is a great car to get in, go out have some fun, enjoy driving, and bring it back to paddock. And it's way better to drive to/from the track with Auto-pilot and big comfy seats!
It's not a track car, but does well enough that you can have some fun.
I welcome questions and comments.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 11-09-2018 at 04:37 PM.
Also I'm guessing you brought your Gen 1 UMC in order to charge at a full 40 amps?
correct!
it should be noted for those that don't know:
the maximum charge rate for L2/AC 240 volt charger for the Model 3 is 48 amps (about 12 kW)
the Universal Moble Charger (UMC) Gen2 that comes with each Model 3 has a maximum charge rate of 32 amps (7.7 kW)
the Universal Mobile Charger Gen1 that comes with the Model S/X has a maximum charge rate of 40 amps (9.6 kW)
Many tracks have NEMA 14-50 RV hook ups - these are 240 volt 50 amp circuits which are a standard RV power hookup - charging an EV derates the breaker by 20%, so 50 amp breaker becomes a 40 amp charge rate
therefore with the UMC that comes with any Tesla you can charge the car using any RV Hook up you can find, RV parks, camp grounds, and many tracks have RV hook ups - which are ideal for charging an EV if you have the right plug on your EV charger. (a lot of EV owners for their home setup just opt for a 50 amp NEMA 14-50 in their garage and use the UMC that came with the car - this is a great setup and works great for most people).
I sold my Model 3 UMC Gen2 on eBay - and used the funds to buy a replacement UMC Gen1 for it's 40 amp charging capacity (knowing that one day I'd want to charge at maximum rate at a track in the future using an RV hookup/NEMA 14-50).
Laguna has a couple of "exposed" NEMA 14-50 plugs - but the garage's have NEMA 10-30 plugs for tire warmers - those are 30 amp circuits in the garages which means you can charge at 24 amps (5.76 kW) if you're in a garage and have the correct adapter (which I do ;-)). So for Laguna I'll be able to charge at either 24 amps or 40 amps depending on where I want to park the car between session. There is also 3 supercharger with in 30 miles of Laguna (Monterey, Salinas, Seaside) - I don't think it practical to use the supercharger between sessions (too far) but they are there for the end of the day so I can drain the battery pretty close to empty and still know I can get home because of the near by superchargers.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 11-09-2018 at 07:33 PM.
Tesla fans know what that means. Like the gnarliest versions of models S and X, this all-wheel-drive 3 launches from a standstill like a rifle shot. Our testing measured a 0-60 time of 3.3 seconds, 0-100 in 8.6, and a quarter-mile of 11.8 seconds at 113.7 mph. Keep the pedal nailed, and you'll hit a 155-mph top speed that's 15 mph higher than the base Model 3. The braking is prodigious, too, with 60-0 and 80-0 distances on par with a BMW M3 on carbon ceramics.
10-04-2018, 03:33 AM
