Is it really just the battery?
08-25-2018, 03:49 PM
#106
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
but most people own two cars - keep the suburban for the extreme requirements and get an EV for the daily chores - that would still be a huge win in reduction of emissions every one owned an SUV and a hybrid/EV - it's very very likely the 2nd car is an EV could meet/exceed 100% of the 2nd car's requirements with the gas car as the "other" car for both commuter and road-trip duties....if you can afford a boat and a suburban you can afford an EV…
08-25-2018, 04:19 PM
#107
but most people own two cars - keep the suburban for the extreme requirements and get an EV for the daily chores - that would still be a huge win in reduction of emissions every one owned an SUV and a hybrid/EV - it's very very likely the 2nd car is an EV could meet/exceed 100% of the 2nd car's requirements with the gas car as the "other" car for both commuter and road-trip duties....if you can afford a boat and a suburban you can afford an EV…
A Model 3, Bolt, Volt, severely limits utility of that vehicle and a lot of families won’t accept that. Throw four 16 year old boys and their hockey bags in a Volt and drive three hours to a tournament and let me know how it goes.
08-25-2018, 05:02 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
the Volt unfortunately is a 4 passenger vehicle - the model 3 _might_ handle the load - the model S/X most definitely would - as would the jaguar iPace…the Taycan would not (it's a four passenger vehicle)
I've seen a lot of families where Dad commutes in the "sedan" - and Mom has the mini-van and odyssey - are you saying you couldn't commute in a Model 3, and leave the family vehicle (gas at home) that really wouldn't work for most famlies - it certainly would've/did/does work for myself, my wife and the 3 kids…
MiniVan for "stay at home parent" + EV for "working commuter" parent doesn't work?
I've seen a lot of families where Dad commutes in the "sedan" - and Mom has the mini-van and odyssey - are you saying you couldn't commute in a Model 3, and leave the family vehicle (gas at home) that really wouldn't work for most famlies - it certainly would've/did/does work for myself, my wife and the 3 kids…
MiniVan for "stay at home parent" + EV for "working commuter" parent doesn't work?
08-25-2018, 05:34 PM
#109
Burning Brakes
Model X actually has a decent tow rating. Over at the TMC forums there are a couple guys who have done trips towing Airstreams with them. A bass boat would be a piece of cake.
Fiat/Chrysler now has a PHEV version of the Pacifica. Would be great for a wife that wants to haul lots of kids and stuff around.
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, now that it is finally available in the U.S, is interesting. It has been a best seller in Europe for some years. Supposedly a big upgrade coming in 2019 so I'd wait for that. I think it can do some light towing too.
Lots more coming - including Fords PHEV F150 next year as a 2020 model. You've got to figure GM will have their response.
Fiat/Chrysler now has a PHEV version of the Pacifica. Would be great for a wife that wants to haul lots of kids and stuff around.
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, now that it is finally available in the U.S, is interesting. It has been a best seller in Europe for some years. Supposedly a big upgrade coming in 2019 so I'd wait for that. I think it can do some light towing too.
Lots more coming - including Fords PHEV F150 next year as a 2020 model. You've got to figure GM will have their response.
08-25-2018, 07:03 PM
#110
the Volt unfortunately is a 4 passenger vehicle - the model 3 _might_ handle the load - the model S/X most definitely would - as would the jaguar iPace…the Taycan would not (it's a four passenger vehicle)
I've seen a lot of families where Dad commutes in the "sedan" - and Mom has the mini-van and odyssey - are you saying you couldn't commute in a Model 3, and leave the family vehicle (gas at home) that really wouldn't work for most famlies - it certainly would've/did/does work for myself, my wife and the 3 kids…
MiniVan for "stay at home parent" + EV for "working commuter" parent doesn't work?
I've seen a lot of families where Dad commutes in the "sedan" - and Mom has the mini-van and odyssey - are you saying you couldn't commute in a Model 3, and leave the family vehicle (gas at home) that really wouldn't work for most famlies - it certainly would've/did/does work for myself, my wife and the 3 kids…
MiniVan for "stay at home parent" + EV for "working commuter" parent doesn't work?
08-25-2018, 07:05 PM
#111
But we’re talking about Joe Q. Public. You do know that 85% of the population can’t afford a $100k EV right?
08-25-2018, 07:52 PM
#112
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The A6 sedan does not have more room than a Model S. Between the deep trunk - and the frunk in a Model S you easily load 5 adults and crap in a model S
According to the Audi website the A6 has 14.1 cubic feet of "cargo" room vs. the Model S at 30 cubic feet. - you can pack a ton of crap into a Model S without folding down the seats - I've done it - it can carry way more stuff than most any sedan except for maybe an A8 or S class…
the Model 3 has 15 cu/ft of trunk space in line with the A6 - it might be a tighter fit for 5 people , but it has the same cargo capacity at the A6 sedan - so what ever you could fit in your A6 will easily fit in either a 3 or an S - in the S you'll have room to spare - the Model 3 trunk is really really deceptively big - there is a cavity due to the lack of a rear mounted fuel tank…that is very deep and can carry a lot of stuff - and it's surprisingly long even with the seats up…
I'm not sure an A6 is really that much bigger at the end of the day for passengers and cargo…
the A6 wagons Audi used to produce has some specs that exceed the S…but only slightly - is that what you are referring to?
the A6 wagon might have more room but certainly not the sedan.
I'l stand by my statement that a typical family can easily have a no compromises approach with a Model 3 sedan and MiniVan/SUV that meets their needs - the 3 is at least as functional as any Honda or Camery or Lexus for a single person commuter car - leaving the gas based SUV for large cargo/passenger hauling, the 3's trunk space is at least equal to an sedan in it's price range at $50k
working parent drives the sedan day to day - stay at home parent drives the larger vehicle - I don't see how that doesn't fit most families - two cars - one for commuting, one for large capacity needs.
According to the Audi website the A6 has 14.1 cubic feet of "cargo" room vs. the Model S at 30 cubic feet. - you can pack a ton of crap into a Model S without folding down the seats - I've done it - it can carry way more stuff than most any sedan except for maybe an A8 or S class…
the Model 3 has 15 cu/ft of trunk space in line with the A6 - it might be a tighter fit for 5 people , but it has the same cargo capacity at the A6 sedan - so what ever you could fit in your A6 will easily fit in either a 3 or an S - in the S you'll have room to spare - the Model 3 trunk is really really deceptively big - there is a cavity due to the lack of a rear mounted fuel tank…that is very deep and can carry a lot of stuff - and it's surprisingly long even with the seats up…
I'm not sure an A6 is really that much bigger at the end of the day for passengers and cargo…
the A6 wagons Audi used to produce has some specs that exceed the S…but only slightly - is that what you are referring to?
the A6 wagon might have more room but certainly not the sedan.
I'l stand by my statement that a typical family can easily have a no compromises approach with a Model 3 sedan and MiniVan/SUV that meets their needs - the 3 is at least as functional as any Honda or Camery or Lexus for a single person commuter car - leaving the gas based SUV for large cargo/passenger hauling, the 3's trunk space is at least equal to an sedan in it's price range at $50k
working parent drives the sedan day to day - stay at home parent drives the larger vehicle - I don't see how that doesn't fit most families - two cars - one for commuting, one for large capacity needs.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-25-2018 at 08:13 PM.
08-25-2018, 08:43 PM
#113
I was referring to the interior of my old A6. Look at it this way, the rear seat and cargo area of my Golf R are bigger than a model 3 and I would never have owned this car with kids in the house. As good as a car that it is, it just can’t do the things we would have wanted it to do back then.
09-01-2018, 06:28 AM
#114
I have noticed that many in the EV world appear to lack EQ and thus can't comprehend Joe Q Public. Joe Q Public is seen and not heard let alone understood. I notice the same with cyclistas e.g. the "we need more bike paths" mentality, failing to recognise the difficulties faced by mum with three kids in two different schools and a job to nail.
Likewise with a lot of environmentalists and academics - the failure to engage and communicate honestly in a language that Joe Q Public understands has largely contributed to the stand-off we see today with respect to accelerated climate change.
The message could have been so simple -
"The planet has been warming for the last 14,000 years. This warming trend is accelerating due to emissions caused by mankind over the last 150 years. For the last 70 years the United States and China have been the major emitters and as such we will take a leadership role in reducing these emissions which are largely produced by the generation of power and the movement of automobiles. We will do this together and in the best interest of mankind whilst at the same time helping emerging economies and the people therein to thrive and prosper"
It requires both EQ and IQ to generate effective, timely change. It also requires real world honesty and a simple message - something sadly lacking in our current society.
Hence the bizarre world of Musk and Trump and an EV that few can afford to buy.
Last edited by groundhog; 09-01-2018 at 07:41 AM.
09-01-2018, 01:09 PM
#115
I don't think its that complicated.
1) EV's right now don't have enough range and top speed potential. The plug in hybrid is the only solution to that.
2) EV charging stations don't have the infrastructure yet in place like gas stations in 99% of the World. I'm not going to plan my trip out, worrying about where charging stations are.
3) Battery technology right now uses a limited natural resource, that is toxic, and not efficient from an energy standpoint to produce and recycle. That means that sure, you can save some bucks on gas, by you're still using fossils fuels in many places to create the charging. Also there isn't enough material to create batteries for every car on the road along with phones, laptops and basically all other wireless electronic devices. We need other options on battery technology. I think the hybrid at this point is a good balance between the two technologies to maximize performance and efficiency. It will only get better.
4) EV's and hybrids are expensive and complicated. They are not as easily modified, and it really is a paradigm shift from automotive tinkers of ICE to the hipster, apple store car enthusiast. It takes going from grease monkey to tech nerds. It means that your car can be modified, updated, and nerfed like youre favorite video game her, through wifi by you, the manufacturer and by hackers. That is a hard thing to swallow. It takes away that freedom that comes with tinkering with your cars, and driving the hell out of them. At what point do people just stop driving their cars? New generations are already losing interest in cars, and there is growing interest in autonomous robot cars, which I can't possible imagine myself ever riding in. Like not ever.
1) EV's right now don't have enough range and top speed potential. The plug in hybrid is the only solution to that.
2) EV charging stations don't have the infrastructure yet in place like gas stations in 99% of the World. I'm not going to plan my trip out, worrying about where charging stations are.
3) Battery technology right now uses a limited natural resource, that is toxic, and not efficient from an energy standpoint to produce and recycle. That means that sure, you can save some bucks on gas, by you're still using fossils fuels in many places to create the charging. Also there isn't enough material to create batteries for every car on the road along with phones, laptops and basically all other wireless electronic devices. We need other options on battery technology. I think the hybrid at this point is a good balance between the two technologies to maximize performance and efficiency. It will only get better.
4) EV's and hybrids are expensive and complicated. They are not as easily modified, and it really is a paradigm shift from automotive tinkers of ICE to the hipster, apple store car enthusiast. It takes going from grease monkey to tech nerds. It means that your car can be modified, updated, and nerfed like youre favorite video game her, through wifi by you, the manufacturer and by hackers. That is a hard thing to swallow. It takes away that freedom that comes with tinkering with your cars, and driving the hell out of them. At what point do people just stop driving their cars? New generations are already losing interest in cars, and there is growing interest in autonomous robot cars, which I can't possible imagine myself ever riding in. Like not ever.
09-13-2018, 10:28 PM
#116
Burning Brakes
Mr. groundhog, there are many clear, simple elucidations of the warming atmosphere as being due to human influences, not to mention all the other ways we are affecting nature in negative ways.
The US people who blindly follow Republicans and Trump are the only people on the planet who deny a warming earth as due to human influences. No other peoples, no other countries do. It doesn't matter how much you clearly explain the problem, these people have other issues that prevent them from accepting truth and facts and science. Whatever the downfalls and limitations of non-oil-based automotive propulsion, such propulsion should be commended as a positive way to wean us off of the polluting gas-powered trucks, cars, buses, trains, ships, lawn mowers, planes, etc., that are hurting our environment so badly.
The US people who blindly follow Republicans and Trump are the only people on the planet who deny a warming earth as due to human influences. No other peoples, no other countries do. It doesn't matter how much you clearly explain the problem, these people have other issues that prevent them from accepting truth and facts and science. Whatever the downfalls and limitations of non-oil-based automotive propulsion, such propulsion should be commended as a positive way to wean us off of the polluting gas-powered trucks, cars, buses, trains, ships, lawn mowers, planes, etc., that are hurting our environment so badly.
Last edited by cometguy; 09-14-2018 at 03:59 PM.
09-13-2018, 10:36 PM
#117
Burning Brakes
Paul Rathjen, I agree with you that hybrid is going to get better, and it's really the way to go now and for years to come. When Porsches and other fun cars to drive can get plug-in battery capacities of 20-30 kWh to go with their back-up gas engines, we'll be in a good place. My 26-mile roundtrip work commute is very close to my limit with my 14-kWh Panamera E-Hybrid in terms of an all-electric commute. Having the hybrid's extra horsepower for long-distance road trips with the better gas mileage (and decently large gas tanks) is a nice compromise.
09-13-2018, 11:12 PM
#118
Mr. groundhog, there are many clear, simple elucidations of the warming atmosphere as being due to human influences, not to mention all the other ways we are affecting nature in negative ways.
The US people who blindly follow Republicans and Trump are the only people on the planet who deny a warming earth as due to human influences. No other peoples, no other countries do. It doesn't matter how much you clearly explain the problem, these people have other issues that prevent them from accepting truth and facts and science. Whatever the downfalls and limitations of non-oil-based automotive propulsion, they should be commended as a positive way to wean us off of the polluting gas-powered trucks, cars, buses, trains, ships, lawn mowers, planes, etc., that are hurting our environment so badly.
The US people who blindly follow Republicans and Trump are the only people on the planet who deny a warming earth as due to human influences. No other peoples, no other countries do. It doesn't matter how much you clearly explain the problem, these people have other issues that prevent them from accepting truth and facts and science. Whatever the downfalls and limitations of non-oil-based automotive propulsion, they should be commended as a positive way to wean us off of the polluting gas-powered trucks, cars, buses, trains, ships, lawn mowers, planes, etc., that are hurting our environment so badly.
Yes the science was settled when the Earth was flat and leaches sucked out the bad demons.
Yes, yes, Trump and Republicans are sucking the Earth dry. I guess China and India must be replenishing it with their severe air pollution and literal rivers of human excrement.
There are just waves of immigrants and refugees pouring into India, China, Venezuela....Mexico too I bet to breath in that fresh air. The streets of Paris are enriched with the cities of homeless and carboard boxes too!
No matter about the island of waste and radioactive material floating in the middle of the ocean from the last Japanese nuclear disaster. That god damn Trump caused those cooling systems to fail too - he should have sent over another $100,000,000 US tax dollars to keep that from happening.
I mean if I had only the money I’d be on a ship right now to the middle east to bask in a desert full of Sharia and honor killings. I mean **** they might stone women to death for allowing themselves to be raped but their recycling programs are the best in the world!
I need to go go slam my face Ace Ventura style into a bench......
09-14-2018, 10:19 AM
#119
Instructor
