Is it really just the battery?
08-22-2018, 03:06 PM
#46
When a pure EV wins anything more than a carefully planned sprint race , I'll change my tune. Until then these highly skewed examples are showing nothing but victory in short bursts.
An EV at this moment couldn't even survive a basic HPDE / Track day with 4 x 25 minute track sessions and Formula E looks like the entire race is under a yellow flag.
CAFE has destroyed and demonized the ICE and those that have invested their next fortunes heavily in EV are obviously pushing their agendas hard with stunts like these ones referenced above and actually loving the bad reputation ICE is getting because it only furthers their intentions.
An EV at this moment couldn't even survive a basic HPDE / Track day with 4 x 25 minute track sessions and Formula E looks like the entire race is under a yellow flag.
CAFE has destroyed and demonized the ICE and those that have invested their next fortunes heavily in EV are obviously pushing their agendas hard with stunts like these ones referenced above and actually loving the bad reputation ICE is getting because it only furthers their intentions.
08-22-2018, 03:20 PM
#47
The tech is NOT there in terms of battery life or recharging infrastructure. Bottom line, if your EV is getting plugged in to be recharged it's likely getting it's electricity from a grid powered by coal plants that make up a large potion of the green house gas emissions.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions
What EV kool aide represents right now is a vehicle that has limited range, excessive weight , debatable contribution to the environment, is more expensive and offers less performance than in a comparable ICE vehicle.
When a new vehicle comes out particularly from a sports car manufacture it needs to offer only gains to the consumer with little to no drawbacks to be widely accepted. Porsche will not produce a vehicle in the Taycan that will outshine any one of it's previous models in nearly any objective way that a new sports car model should be measured. It will be slower around a track ( sustained laps NOT some sub 10 minute burst) than a comparable ICE car / offer limited range / it will be expensive and more difficult to live with than any current ICE car.
The only thing they will achieve is offering a leading edge face value product for a face value society concerned only with specs on a sheet and no depth of thought in a purchase as expensive as this. Buying a Taycan over say a Panamera will offer nothing to the consumer other than the feeling of being on the " leading edge of technology" which is a very fickle place to be.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions
What EV kool aide represents right now is a vehicle that has limited range, excessive weight , debatable contribution to the environment, is more expensive and offers less performance than in a comparable ICE vehicle.
When a new vehicle comes out particularly from a sports car manufacture it needs to offer only gains to the consumer with little to no drawbacks to be widely accepted. Porsche will not produce a vehicle in the Taycan that will outshine any one of it's previous models in nearly any objective way that a new sports car model should be measured. It will be slower around a track ( sustained laps NOT some sub 10 minute burst) than a comparable ICE car / offer limited range / it will be expensive and more difficult to live with than any current ICE car.
The only thing they will achieve is offering a leading edge face value product for a face value society concerned only with specs on a sheet and no depth of thought in a purchase as expensive as this. Buying a Taycan over say a Panamera will offer nothing to the consumer other than the feeling of being on the " leading edge of technology" which is a very fickle place to be.
08-22-2018, 03:28 PM
#48
Because your use case is long duration, high continuous output? You plan to track the car or you live on the autobahn? In that case I completely agree- I'm keeping an ICE car for the former (and other reasons). But I think very few people will have use cases that EVs don't do very well, particularly when you keep in mind that what they give up in endurance they're beginning to gain in those sprints...
08-22-2018, 03:45 PM
#49
Because your use case is long duration, high continuous output? You plan to track the car or you live on the autobahn? In that case I completely agree- I'm keeping an ICE car for the former (and other reasons). But I think very few people will have use cases that EVs don't do very well, particularly when you keep in mind that what they give up in endurance they're beginning to gain in those sprints...
Absolutely, I'm stateside unfortunately so no Autobahn for me. I don't want to veer too far off topic and discuss the EV merits as it applies to the Taycan which is as far as I can tell being marketed as a sports car. Sports car means , high continuous output, track days , autobahn for those lucky enough.
My 991.1 barely gets 300 miles per tank because it's used as a pleasure vehicle , a sports car that get's driven as intended. I'm thinking about local PCA driving events where we take very spirited drives that sometimes equate to a couple hundred miles and sometimes include 30 minutes of "parade laps" at a local track. At the current technology limits this would not be possible for someone in a Taycan who had to drive a distance to and from the starting point, and if they found themselves out of juice in a rural area ( where the good back roads exist) it's hard enough to find a gas station never mind some EV " supercharging " station.
This is a Porsche enthusiasts forum, I understand EV has some practical applications as a daily people commuter. I don't care about daily people movers which is why I'm here instead.
08-22-2018, 04:06 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
we have extensively discussed and documented that even when the grid is fossil fuel powered EV's greater efficiencies lead to emissions savings - it's is not equivalent to say because my power is fossil fuel based I can drive my highly inefficient gas car and they have the same impact - there are multiple threads and details derivations with _DATA_ that show EV's have less impact even _IF_ the grid is fossil fuel based EV's are a big win in terms of overall consumption and therefore emissions…
it is NOT equivilant to burn fossil fuel in a car or a power plant - they have radically different efficiency and use curves and the commercial nature of the power plant favor the EV for total emissions, and the grid is moving to more efficient lower emission solutions over time…the western region of the US for example gets less than 4% of it's total power produced from coal - and 52 percent from renewables…the grid is on the march and it's moving to lower emission or zero emission solutions - and in certain areas of the US and the world it's already drastically less fossil fuel based…EV's will ride that wave where as gas cars will always consume gas.
it's not an agenda - it's a scientific fact.
it is NOT equivilant to burn fossil fuel in a car or a power plant - they have radically different efficiency and use curves and the commercial nature of the power plant favor the EV for total emissions, and the grid is moving to more efficient lower emission solutions over time…the western region of the US for example gets less than 4% of it's total power produced from coal - and 52 percent from renewables…the grid is on the march and it's moving to lower emission or zero emission solutions - and in certain areas of the US and the world it's already drastically less fossil fuel based…EV's will ride that wave where as gas cars will always consume gas.
it's not an agenda - it's a scientific fact.
08-22-2018, 04:08 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
The tech is NOT there in terms of battery life or recharging infrastructure. Bottom line, if your EV is getting plugged in to be recharged it's likely getting it's electricity from a grid powered by coal plants that make up a large potion of the green house gas emissions.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions
What EV kool aide represents right now is a vehicle that has limited range, excessive weight , debatable contribution to the environment, is more expensive and offers less performance than in a comparable ICE vehicle.
When a new vehicle comes out particularly from a sports car manufacture it needs to offer only gains to the consumer with little to no drawbacks to be widely accepted. Porsche will not produce a vehicle in the Taycan that will outshine any one of it's previous models in nearly any objective way that a new sports car model should be measured. It will be slower around a track ( sustained laps NOT some sub 10 minute burst) than a comparable ICE car / offer limited range / it will be expensive and more difficult to live with than any current ICE car.
The only thing they will achieve is offering a leading edge face value product for a face value society concerned only with specs on a sheet and no depth of thought in a purchase as expensive as this. Buying a Taycan over say a Panamera will offer nothing to the consumer other than the feeling of being on the " leading edge of technology" which is a very fickle place to be.
When a new vehicle comes out particularly from a sports car manufacture it needs to offer only gains to the consumer with little to no drawbacks to be widely accepted. Porsche will not produce a vehicle in the Taycan that will outshine any one of it's previous models in nearly any objective way that a new sports car model should be measured. It will be slower around a track ( sustained laps NOT some sub 10 minute burst) than a comparable ICE car / offer limited range / it will be expensive and more difficult to live with than any current ICE car.
The only thing they will achieve is offering a leading edge face value product for a face value society concerned only with specs on a sheet and no depth of thought in a purchase as expensive as this. Buying a Taycan over say a Panamera will offer nothing to the consumer other than the feeling of being on the " leading edge of technology" which is a very fickle place to be.
Last edited by whiz944; 08-22-2018 at 05:04 PM.
08-22-2018, 04:20 PM
#52
The tech is NOT there in terms of battery life or recharging infrastructure. Bottom line, if your EV is getting plugged in to be recharged it's likely getting it's electricity from a grid powered by coal plants that make up a large potion of the green house gas emissions.
What EV kool aide represents right now is a vehicle that has limited range, excessive weight , debatable contribution to the environment, is more expensive and offers less performance than in a comparable ICE vehicle.
What EV kool aide represents right now is a vehicle that has limited range, excessive weight , debatable contribution to the environment, is more expensive and offers less performance than in a comparable ICE vehicle.
a) limited range: I ran an autocross Sunday in my Model 3. I left the house, drove 80 miles to the site. I spent 15 minutes at a supercharger on the way there while I grabbed starbucks- ~20 open spots, $.26 in "fuel". I did both the morning and afternoon sessions over 10 runs, went to lunch, drove back home arriving with over 30% charge remaining, meaning I there was no need to supercharge at all, and if there had been I would have had lots of options. Some people need more range, sure, but as far as I can tell in my area there's very little I do or plan to do where I'd actually be range limited. Exceptions would be track days or the occasional road rally I do (which given that they are only open to vintage cars is not an option).
b) excessive weight: This matters how other than possibly enjoyment, which is down to the chassis and not the powerplant? If I can put tires onto a 4 door family sedan and beat 90% of Porsches at a highly competitive zone autocross event is that weight really holding me back? It's saloon within 300 lbs of a carbon fiber chassis 2 seat 918, and that seems to handle the weight OK?
c) getting electricity from a grid powered by coal plants: Not here it's not. Below is a typical day from last year in California- more PV has been added since. I generally charge at work during the day. That "thermal" and "imports" band is what you're looking for that's largely fossil fueled, the vast majority of that is natural gas at 50% thermal efficiency.
d) debatable contribution to the environment: Please elaborate. Lithium mining? Vehicle embodied energy? Emissions per mile?
e) is more expensive and offers less performance than in a comparable ICE vehicle: Again see my 3D review. I replaced an Audi S3, a car that was with a few hundred dollars MSRP. The 3D is faster in nearly every way, far faster real world. And more fun to drive. What car would you suggest in the class and price range that's less expensive and offers more performance?
f) The tech is NOT there in terms of battery life or recharging infrastructure: My car came with an 8 year, infinite mile battery warranty. I owned a fiat 500e and drove it daily for three years before that. There was less than a 5 mile loss in range when I sold it after 30k+ miles. Please explain how battery life isn't there? The mistake many make is that they assume their iPhone experience will be duplicated in an EV. They are hugely different situations.
g) or recharging infrastructure: I'll give you that depending on area. Around here I see plenty of free superchargers any time I look, but it will be an issue in other areas I'm sure.
So which points do you take issue with- I'm "drinking the kool-aid" where?
08-22-2018, 04:44 PM
#53
It's clear this debate is never going to stop and as I had mentioned once before way further up in this thread there is California and then there is the rest of the country. California is and has been a modern progressive state at the forefront of technology and lowering emissions and that includes it's power plants. In the Northeast outside of any major metro area.... NOT even close.
Clearly everyone of you that has purchased an EV is going to defend your position and purchase justification to the end and as a fellow enthusiast I completely respect that.
Let's back up with one question I have that possibly you can help answer : I walk into a Porsche dealership in update New York in the near future ready to purchase a sports car and there is a new Taycan with some options ( let's not kid ourselves they are going to be 120+ K to purchase) and next to it is a Carrera S for a comparable price.
What I want to purchase that day is a fun sports car that evokes emotion, is nimble and light on it's feet, sounds great, drives great , a blend of man and machine. I want a sports car that can be used as a track car, or for fun weekend road trips , PCA club events etc., a no nonsense go anywhere, anytime when I feel like it car with little fuss or stress.
Why would the Taycan be my choice of sports car over a Carrera S ?
Clearly everyone of you that has purchased an EV is going to defend your position and purchase justification to the end and as a fellow enthusiast I completely respect that.
Let's back up with one question I have that possibly you can help answer : I walk into a Porsche dealership in update New York in the near future ready to purchase a sports car and there is a new Taycan with some options ( let's not kid ourselves they are going to be 120+ K to purchase) and next to it is a Carrera S for a comparable price.
What I want to purchase that day is a fun sports car that evokes emotion, is nimble and light on it's feet, sounds great, drives great , a blend of man and machine. I want a sports car that can be used as a track car, or for fun weekend road trips , PCA club events etc., a no nonsense go anywhere, anytime when I feel like it car with little fuss or stress.
Why would the Taycan be my choice of sports car over a Carrera S ?
08-22-2018, 04:56 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
doesn't matter what the power source is - even in the northeast it's more efficient to drive an EV than burn gasoline in a 5-28% efficient ICE 18 gallons at a time…and the Northeast grid is not going to remain stagnant anymore than California's did - it's moving and EV's will ride the coat tails. (ICE's are up to 32% efficient, but rarely if ever spend any significant amount of time at the most efficient RPM - and once they are outside that particular RPM value they are dramatically less efficient - so let's not pretend they are anywhere near that efficient in daily use or even at high cruise - that's why the Chevy Volt runs it's generaterator at one speed - and only one speed - the most efficient speed to charge the battery extracting the most benefit out of the fuel) - driving an EV is always 90% efficient at all speeds - and if you couple that to a power plant running at it's peak efficiency which they do all the time since it's commerically necessary - you have one fossil fuel system running at it's optimal efficiency powering a mobile transport vehicle running at it's optimal efficiency - which beats a ICE car running at various sub-optimal efficiencies and mostly idling in traffic.
so excuse me - you do not get to say your ICE is just like a power plant because they both use the same fuel source - it's a cop out and the data overwhelming disputes that assertion (unless your ICE is a Chevy Volt - and even then the commercial scale power plant still wins but the Volt closes the gap by quite a bit).
You don't get to say a highly efficient commercially operated power plant is equivilant to driving a gas car.
You can however say I don't like Ev's and would not consider purchasing one and I'll miss the exhaust noise and at the moment they are heavier than my gas car and I like a manual transmission, and I don't like instant torque or the slow charging speeds, but let's not pretend you are not buying an EV because your local power plant is using fossil fuels and that makes EV's pointless and the efficiency clams are all bunk. That is simply not true based on any objective data you can find or present. And people who buy and EV are not clinging to these facts to justify their pointless purchase, they are simply facts and the evidence overwhelmingly favors the EV for how should we consume fossil fuels - but hey if we go EV we can use other forms of power generation also - hey that's kinda neat - an EV is actually a flex fuel vehicle, doesn't care how the electricity is generated. (I personally use renewable hamsters to power my Model S running on tread mills - but don't have the analysis for food cost per mile).
and there is the most recent analysis published by Forbes (that tree hugging left wing liberal agenda news rag) that shows the current analysis is better to charge an EV than drive a gas car regardless of regional location - and as the power grid moves the EV fleet moves with it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyi.../#4128c96571f8
for the time being I'll choose my GT3 over my EV for "track days" and pure sports cars - once we see some EV sports cars (the taycan is not a 911 competitor) then I'll revisit - the specs on Elon's 2.0 roadster may be a choice over a Carrera S - but so far we have sedans to compare and I would certainly choose a Taycan over a Panamera or BMW 5 series - and I have no regrets driving my Model S vs. any 4 door sedan choice for the past 4 years - and my wife wouldn't give up her quick Model X SUV for any SUV we could buy either…
we'll also have to see how much difference the forthcoming track mode software update for the Model 3 makes - it apparently addresses a lot of feedback…
day by day, week by week, month by month the EV stuff is evolving and addressing the short coming - just compare where we are now vs. 2 years ago and the progress is breath taking - this EV thing is happening and it's happening quicker than anyone can imagine - one by one the arguments will be nullified and addressed - and what will be left is: exhaust noice and the lack of a transmission so there is no manual EV - all other limitations will be addressed over time…
LOL - two years ago predict an EV would best the Pike's peak run by 45 seconds over the closest purpose built ICE competitor - you all would've posted much digital ink over that claim...
so excuse me - you do not get to say your ICE is just like a power plant because they both use the same fuel source - it's a cop out and the data overwhelming disputes that assertion (unless your ICE is a Chevy Volt - and even then the commercial scale power plant still wins but the Volt closes the gap by quite a bit).
You don't get to say a highly efficient commercially operated power plant is equivilant to driving a gas car.
You can however say I don't like Ev's and would not consider purchasing one and I'll miss the exhaust noise and at the moment they are heavier than my gas car and I like a manual transmission, and I don't like instant torque or the slow charging speeds, but let's not pretend you are not buying an EV because your local power plant is using fossil fuels and that makes EV's pointless and the efficiency clams are all bunk. That is simply not true based on any objective data you can find or present. And people who buy and EV are not clinging to these facts to justify their pointless purchase, they are simply facts and the evidence overwhelmingly favors the EV for how should we consume fossil fuels - but hey if we go EV we can use other forms of power generation also - hey that's kinda neat - an EV is actually a flex fuel vehicle, doesn't care how the electricity is generated. (I personally use renewable hamsters to power my Model S running on tread mills - but don't have the analysis for food cost per mile).
and there is the most recent analysis published by Forbes (that tree hugging left wing liberal agenda news rag) that shows the current analysis is better to charge an EV than drive a gas car regardless of regional location - and as the power grid moves the EV fleet moves with it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyi.../#4128c96571f8
for the time being I'll choose my GT3 over my EV for "track days" and pure sports cars - once we see some EV sports cars (the taycan is not a 911 competitor) then I'll revisit - the specs on Elon's 2.0 roadster may be a choice over a Carrera S - but so far we have sedans to compare and I would certainly choose a Taycan over a Panamera or BMW 5 series - and I have no regrets driving my Model S vs. any 4 door sedan choice for the past 4 years - and my wife wouldn't give up her quick Model X SUV for any SUV we could buy either…
we'll also have to see how much difference the forthcoming track mode software update for the Model 3 makes - it apparently addresses a lot of feedback…
day by day, week by week, month by month the EV stuff is evolving and addressing the short coming - just compare where we are now vs. 2 years ago and the progress is breath taking - this EV thing is happening and it's happening quicker than anyone can imagine - one by one the arguments will be nullified and addressed - and what will be left is: exhaust noice and the lack of a transmission so there is no manual EV - all other limitations will be addressed over time…
LOL - two years ago predict an EV would best the Pike's peak run by 45 seconds over the closest purpose built ICE competitor - you all would've posted much digital ink over that claim...
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-22-2018 at 06:01 PM.
08-22-2018, 05:21 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
it's also interesting to note that Porsche has been running electric Boxster's for years in Stuttgart apparently as corporate run about for a number of years - I know quite a few people that would take an electric boxster over an ICE boxster as a fun sports car...
so let's not make the Taycan the solve all problems to replace my 911 - but an "electric" 911 might sway you…and Elon's vaporware Roadster 2.0 would be compelling if it ever sees the light of day...
so let's not make the Taycan the solve all problems to replace my 911 - but an "electric" 911 might sway you…and Elon's vaporware Roadster 2.0 would be compelling if it ever sees the light of day...
08-22-2018, 05:25 PM
#56
Electric is coming and it's coming fast. From a pure performance car perspective I'm not thrilled about that, as I've said repeatedly.
I want to purchase that day is a fun sports car that evokes emotion, is nimble and light on it's feet, sounds great, drives great , a blend of man and machine. I want a sports car that can be used as a track car, or for fun weekend road trips , PCA club events etc., a no nonsense go anywhere, anytime when I feel like it car with little fuss or stress.
Why would the Taycan be my choice of sports car over a Carrera S ?
Why would the Taycan be my choice of sports car over a Carrera S ?
The flip answer:
A) The Taycan is likely significantly faster, both against the clock and in real world, and that along with "green goodness" will impress the country club.
B) The Carrera S is probably both Turbo and PDK, so it's not all that "pure" anyway.
C) All that shifting and noise is so 2019...
D) It is better for the environment (but you're kidding yourself if you really think it moves the needle).
The real answer:
Let's hope we still have this choice in 10 years. The question is if Porsche customers can get over the numbers and embrace a slower but more involving car. I'll likely be morning the loss of the normally aspirated engine and manual transmission well before then, but at least I've got my GT3 Touring to console me. I'll wave as the Taycan driver goes by...
08-22-2018, 05:28 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
just thought about an electric 911 - and one of the defining characteristics of the 911 is the engine is in the "wrong place"…
if Porsche build a 911 BEV sports car - and they put one engine on the rear Axel where the differential is (like Tesla does) and one engine on the front Axel like they did on the 918 Spyder
would the engine still be in the wrong place? and if we wanted to put an EV motor in the wrong place - where would we put it?
I mean I love the fact that my 911 engine is int he wrong place and I don't quite want to give that up....where do we put it so that Porshe evolve and overcome that bad design decision over 50 years…
I mean that's what the 911 is isn't it?
08-22-2018, 05:37 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
going back to topic -is it really just the battery
1. the battery is a liability today but one that can be overcome and compensated for and batteries will get better
that will leave us with
1. the ICE "experience" - I've heard loud and clear a lot of you will miss the experience - noise, vibration, feedback, visceral experience of a highly evolved top flight Swiss watch level mechanical engineering marvel that is the Porsche flat-6 9,000 RPM tour-de-force engineering pinnacle that it is....ok I'll buy that
2. and while it hasn't been brought up - I'd suggest the loss of manual transmission control and driver engagement will be a fact for EV's as transmissions are largely un-necessary to date - so those of you that mourn the passing of the manual for gas cars will also miss these bad boy's in an EV
is there anything else you'll miss?
1. the battery is a liability today but one that can be overcome and compensated for and batteries will get better
that will leave us with
1. the ICE "experience" - I've heard loud and clear a lot of you will miss the experience - noise, vibration, feedback, visceral experience of a highly evolved top flight Swiss watch level mechanical engineering marvel that is the Porsche flat-6 9,000 RPM tour-de-force engineering pinnacle that it is....ok I'll buy that
2. and while it hasn't been brought up - I'd suggest the loss of manual transmission control and driver engagement will be a fact for EV's as transmissions are largely un-necessary to date - so those of you that mourn the passing of the manual for gas cars will also miss these bad boy's in an EV
is there anything else you'll miss?
08-22-2018, 05:45 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
it's also interesting to note that Porsche has been running electric Boxster's for years in Stuttgart apparently as corporate run about for a number of years - I know quite a few people that would take an electric boxster over an ICE boxster as a fun sports car...
so let's not make the Taycan the solve all problems to replace my 911 - but an "electric" 911 might sway you…and Elon's vaporware Roadster 2.0 would be compelling if it ever sees the light of day...
so let's not make the Taycan the solve all problems to replace my 911 - but an "electric" 911 might sway you…and Elon's vaporware Roadster 2.0 would be compelling if it ever sees the light of day...
They also had a Tesla Semi parked nearby - which gathered its own share of attention.
Also: Taycan over Panamera any day of the week.
08-22-2018, 05:50 PM
#60
1. the ICE "experience" - I've heard loud and clear a lot of you will miss the experience - noise, vibration, feedback, visceral experience of a highly evolved top flight Swiss watch level mechanical engineering marvel that is the Porsche flat-6 9,000 RPM tour-de-force engineering pinnacle that it is....ok I'll buy that
2. and while it hasn't been brought up - I'd suggest the loss of manual transmission control and driver engagement will be a fact for EV's as transmissions are largely un-necessary to date - so those of you that mourn the passing of the manual for gas cars will also miss these bad boy's in an EV
2. and while it hasn't been brought up - I'd suggest the loss of manual transmission control and driver engagement will be a fact for EV's as transmissions are largely un-necessary to date - so those of you that mourn the passing of the manual for gas cars will also miss these bad boy's in an EV
4. Sensations of speed. Floor the throttle in a tuned 930 and torque builds, pressing you ever harder into the seat. Then you shift and you're momentarily thrown forwards as you switch gates, possibly followed by a brief flair of wheel-spin and getting pressed back again. In an equally fast electric car you might as well simply have your seat leaned back- Gs build and stay there. So it is fast but feels far slower and less dramatic. And frankly what most of us are chasing isn't speed itself, but rather the sensation of speed. If I could feel like I was driving an F1 car at full tilt while never actually breaking the speed limit that would be perfect for a "fun" road car. In many ways electrics are the exact opposite.