Is it really just the battery?
08-01-2018, 03:41 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
please advise if I have-not removed the offensive parts of my response - apologies again - I feel deeply...it got the best of me.
08-03-2018, 01:27 PM
#17
Pro
If Porsche made a 911 with a 250 mile range, I’d buy it today. I bought my GTS off the dealer lot and it’s well optioned but the lack of the extended range fuel tank is the one thing I wish for on a regular basis.
08-03-2018, 03:06 PM
#19
Is this before or after you’ve looked at it?
Dont get me wrong I think in many regards it’s a fine vehicle; not a performance one that I would be interested in, but certainly a good DD. It’s just not an attractive design to my eyes and the dash fails, at least for my needs.
Now, the new Jaguar I-Pace; it deserves a serious look.
Bish
08-03-2018, 05:34 PM
#20
My neighbor already has one and the Tesla dealer has a demonstrator, albeit a single motor version. I'm still waiting for the Jag to hit the streets.
I think today's battery technology is fine, but the innovation we need is lower cost. If EVs are truly going to take over they need to offer better value for the dollar than comparable ICE cars to overcome consumer anxiety regarding adopting new technology.
I think today's battery technology is fine, but the innovation we need is lower cost. If EVs are truly going to take over they need to offer better value for the dollar than comparable ICE cars to overcome consumer anxiety regarding adopting new technology.
08-03-2018, 08:03 PM
#21
Pro
My neighbor already has one and the Tesla dealer has a demonstrator, albeit a single motor version. I'm still waiting for the Jag to hit the streets.
I think today's battery technology is fine, but the innovation we need is lower cost. If EVs are truly going to take over they need to offer better value for the dollar than comparable ICE cars to overcome consumer anxiety regarding adopting new technology.
I think today's battery technology is fine, but the innovation we need is lower cost. If EVs are truly going to take over they need to offer better value for the dollar than comparable ICE cars to overcome consumer anxiety regarding adopting new technology.
- public charging infrastructure: You don’t have a dedicated garage, where do you charge at night?
- the intersection of autonomous technology: The cars are launching an entirely new paradigm for how we use vehicles
- cost: The Model 3 is average $54k, which interestingly enough is what the average pickup truck is selling for in the USA. People finance or lease vehicles now, and are less sensitive to the fulled loaded invoice. Delivering an EV in the sub-$40k range is proving to be a challenge.
- manufacturing scale: Porsche recently went on record saying “gee building EVs is pretty hard”. Tesla’s challenges are well-documented but by almost all accounts, they are through the steepest part of the learning curve. What Porsche, GM, and VW don’t have is the battery IP that Tesla has, and if anything justifies the valuation of TSLA, it is the battery and powertrain technology. It is stunning to see what they have accomplished, it’s right up there with SpaceX landing a reusable rocket on a barge.
- customer experience: Tesla is changing the game and the Germans are ill-equipped to lead when software user experience, customer service, integrated networking covering everything from OTA updates to vehicle-to-vehicle communication become differentiators. I love my Porsche and AMG vehicles but every single time I have to interact with the dealer or manufacturer customer support, I’m pissed off for a week.
Lastly, the model year paradigm itself is being challenged by Tesla. No one talks about the 2016 Model S vs the 2018, and for good reason, the cars are continuously improved and owners can get online and order upgrades like Autopilot without buying a new car. This is fundamentally disruptive to established automakers and I really question if they can make this shift without walking through a hundred miles of broken glass first.
08-03-2018, 09:34 PM
#22
Judging by the book of business and numbers of vehicles shipped, anxiety is not an issue. There are a lot of issues to be concerned about, but the adoption curve really isn’t one of them:
- public charging infrastructure: You don’t have a dedicated garage, where do you charge at night?
- the intersection of autonomous technology: The cars are launching an entirely new paradigm for how we use vehicles
- cost: The Model 3 is average $54k, which interestingly enough is what the average pickup truck is selling for in the USA. People finance or lease vehicles now, and are less sensitive to the fulled loaded invoice. Delivering an EV in the sub-$40k range is proving to be a challenge.
- manufacturing scale: Porsche recently went on record saying “gee building EVs is pretty hard”. Tesla’s challenges are well-documented but by almost all accounts, they are through the steepest part of the learning curve. What Porsche, GM, and VW don’t have is the battery IP that Tesla has, and if anything justifies the valuation of TSLA, it is the battery and powertrain technology. It is stunning to see what they have accomplished, it’s right up there with SpaceX landing a reusable rocket on a barge.
- customer experience: Tesla is changing the game and the Germans are ill-equipped to lead when software user experience, customer service, integrated networking covering everything from OTA updates to vehicle-to-vehicle communication become differentiators. I love my Porsche and AMG vehicles but every single time I have to interact with the dealer or manufacturer customer support, I’m pissed off for a week.
Lastly, the model year paradigm itself is being challenged by Tesla. No one talks about the 2016 Model S vs the 2018, and for good reason, the cars are continuously improved and owners can get online and order upgrades like Autopilot without buying a new car. This is fundamentally disruptive to established automakers and I really question if they can make this shift without walking through a hundred miles of broken glass first.
You are dead on with the major industry disruption Tesla is causing and Elon Musk is drawing ire for it. Consider also that EVs, in theory, require no hard parts or service for the life of the car which means bye bye dealer cash cows. Supplying the proprietary "refueling" infrastructure for the life of the products is not only a brilliant business strategy but something that major OEMs never even conceived of. Plus you order the cars online potentially skipping the stealership sales experience we all know and love so much.
Porsche will need to find a way to not only meet these new expectations but exceed them if they want to continue to be a "premium" brand charging premium prices, and I can see why they are saying "building EVs is hard."
08-05-2018, 01:04 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
so what I've heard is it's not just the battery - for some people it's also the visceral/audible experience of the ICE engine - i.e. there's nothing better than the correct sound from a well tuned 9k RPM flat 6 ;-)
so we've got the battery as a liability (but I surprised myself in the the RWD model 3 isn't that much heavier than a BMW 3 series)
and we've got the lack of exhaust noise for the visceral power experience?
is there anything else?
so we've got the battery as a liability (but I surprised myself in the the RWD model 3 isn't that much heavier than a BMW 3 series)
and we've got the lack of exhaust noise for the visceral power experience?
is there anything else?
08-05-2018, 02:01 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I love engine sounds and normally aspirated ones at that (own a 458 and 2012 Boxster Spyder). Turbo sound is compromised (own a Macan GTS) to the point that I’d rather have no sound- electric. I have driven Teslas and they make ICE cars seem antiquated. I presume that why the stock acts like some sort of cult. People who have driven them understand that this is the future. It’s that pronounced. So I have an order in for Tesla’s Roadster and Porches Taycan (2nd on the list with deposit). I will keep my classic sounding cars for their unique experience. I have lost almost all interest in purchasing a new ICE car. The excitement is shifting to electric as they are in the process of leap frogging performance, reliability and cost. To each his own. Progress marches forward with or without you.
08-05-2018, 10:38 PM
#25
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
so what I've heard is it's not just the battery - for some people it's also the visceral/audible experience of the ICE engine - i.e. there's nothing better than the correct sound from a well tuned 9k RPM flat 6 ;-)
so we've got the battery as a liability (but I surprised myself in the the RWD model 3 isn't that much heavier than a BMW 3 series)
and we've got the lack of exhaust noise for the visceral power experience?
is there anything else?
so we've got the battery as a liability (but I surprised myself in the the RWD model 3 isn't that much heavier than a BMW 3 series)
and we've got the lack of exhaust noise for the visceral power experience?
is there anything else?
Weight. Even a low COG does not make up for the fact that there is a weight penalty with batteries.
08-05-2018, 10:59 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The model 3 is close to the weight of a BMW 3 series...
I love the instant torque - but I guess it could be a problem.
I love the instant torque - but I guess it could be a problem.
08-07-2018, 04:15 AM
#27
Dave , were you actually looking for member feedback and thoughts on EV’s or was this thread just your bait used to snare and belittle members for not agreeing with you ? I’m having a hard time figuring this out.
My skepticism and lack of enthusiasm for EV’s does not qualify me as some sort of cave man and I’m NOT alone in this.
Clearly I’m on the Taycan forum because I’m interested in learning and having fun , thought provoking debates on the subject.
I’m not interested in being alternate fact attacked by someone who clearly isn’t as interested in hearing what others have to say as they are in watching themselves push this “ better get on the bus to the future “ nonsense.
My skepticism and lack of enthusiasm for EV’s does not qualify me as some sort of cave man and I’m NOT alone in this.
Clearly I’m on the Taycan forum because I’m interested in learning and having fun , thought provoking debates on the subject.
I’m not interested in being alternate fact attacked by someone who clearly isn’t as interested in hearing what others have to say as they are in watching themselves push this “ better get on the bus to the future “ nonsense.
For example in Australia you can buy a second hand Corolla for $AUD14,000 (6l/100km or 40mpg), a second hand Model X 60D for $AUD135,000 or the cheapest used Model S I could find for $AUD98,000.
Just imagine how proselytising Tesla owners come across to those on struggle street.
People don't want politics they want vehicles that make economic sense and do what they need them to do. Hence in Australia, like the US - the top seller is a pickup truck.
In regard to batteries, (btw one of the companies I'm an owner of supplies battery stabiliser), I outlined the direction in which they are currently headed e.g. the removal or the aqueous/organic phase from the electrolyte - with potential positive impacts on energy density. This is tough, some consider it unlikely in terms of a break through and minimum times, in optimistic eyes a significant development is at least 5 years out.
Last edited by groundhog; 08-07-2018 at 04:55 AM.
08-20-2018, 07:21 PM
#28
Batteries produce no noises that are appealing to the ear. My brother owns a Model S P85D and while it is savagely fast, it makes no jaw dropping noise. It has jet turbine like noises but again, nothing that rivals any decent ICE.
For my performance car that I drive for fun, a battery will never cut it on its own. It has to be paired with an ICE. However, for puttering around town while carrying family/passengers - it's perfectly fine. The need for sound and pleasure is fulfilled by my GT3, the need for a sensible luxury cruiser that can be fun in a straight line will be fulfilled by EV's. I just don't think batteries will ever replace the aural sensation found in an ICE, regardless of how good the technology becomes and how efficient
For my performance car that I drive for fun, a battery will never cut it on its own. It has to be paired with an ICE. However, for puttering around town while carrying family/passengers - it's perfectly fine. The need for sound and pleasure is fulfilled by my GT3, the need for a sensible luxury cruiser that can be fun in a straight line will be fulfilled by EV's. I just don't think batteries will ever replace the aural sensation found in an ICE, regardless of how good the technology becomes and how efficient
08-20-2018, 07:38 PM
#29
The problem with that conclusion is that you're drawing inferences about the population at large from a small pool of affluent buyers, many of who likely own multiple vehicles. So far, all you have is data on affluent buyers who can afford a $40,000 to $120,000 vehicle. For the average family that needs a single car to do everything, range is likely a much bigger issue. Then again, by the time any of these manufacturers have a true EV for the masses at a reasonable price point, I expect ranges to have improved.
08-21-2018, 04:07 AM
#30
Burning Brakes
IMHO, pack sizes are getting to a reasonable point now. That is, somewhere between 40 and 80-100 kWh for 150-300 miles of range in a decent sized car. (Trucks and SUVs need more capacity for equivalent range.) The thing that is happening, but of course never fast enough, is dropping the battery cost. Many have opined that once pack costs drop below about $100/kWh, EVs will be fully cost competitive with ICE vehicles and then some. It was leaked that GM was buying Bolt EV batteries from LG for $145/kWh a couple years ago. Rumors are that Tesla has even lower unit costs thanks to their Gigafactory.
Cobalt availability is an issue. But researchers are finding ways to reduce the need for cobalt. And eventually the cobalt will be recovered by recycling old packs. In fact that is one of the key reasons to recycle packs.
Question: The closest my Porsche has been to a track in the 31 years I've owned it has been the Laguna Seca parking lot. (1998 Monterey Historics/Porsche 50th anniversary bash for one.) But if one were tracking a car and pushing it to the max - wouldn't it be more important to hear what your tires and suspension are doing, rather than a screaming engine and transmission covering up what the rest of the car is trying to tell you? With an electric drivetrain you have immediate acceleration, powerful regenerative braking - and nearly dead silence from the powertrain. So you can focus on 'everything else'. Not to mention that the battery mass can be placed optimally for low center of gravity and front/rear distribution.
Cobalt availability is an issue. But researchers are finding ways to reduce the need for cobalt. And eventually the cobalt will be recovered by recycling old packs. In fact that is one of the key reasons to recycle packs.
Question: The closest my Porsche has been to a track in the 31 years I've owned it has been the Laguna Seca parking lot. (1998 Monterey Historics/Porsche 50th anniversary bash for one.) But if one were tracking a car and pushing it to the max - wouldn't it be more important to hear what your tires and suspension are doing, rather than a screaming engine and transmission covering up what the rest of the car is trying to tell you? With an electric drivetrain you have immediate acceleration, powerful regenerative braking - and nearly dead silence from the powertrain. So you can focus on 'everything else'. Not to mention that the battery mass can be placed optimally for low center of gravity and front/rear distribution.
