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I hope Porsche realizes that price is gonna sell these cars

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Old 07-10-2018, 02:30 PM
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unclewill
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Default I hope Porsche realizes that price is gonna sell these cars

After driving the Model 3, Model S, Model X, Bolt, i3, Leaf and owning a Fiat 500e I've come to realize that they all drive the same on the street, practically speaking.

If the Taycan doesn't offer 300 miles range, AWD and a base price of $75k (as initially advertised), I'll be running - not walking - to the Tesla dealer with my refunded deposit...

Thoughts?
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:16 PM
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A Model S 75D starts at $75k with a 259 mile range (Easily hits $92k with a handful of options). If the Taycan has similar specs but with an interior on par with the new Panamera, it will be quite a step up from a Model S. The Taycan could easily come in at $10k-$20k over the Model S and still be the better car. Another factor is Tesla is about to run out of their tax credits. So the Taycan might be another $7500 cheaper based on that alone.

I would also be willing to bet that the Taycan will drive much more like a sports car compared to the Model S.
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:26 PM
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charging network is a major consideration for my next EV purchase....I'll think long and hard about that before I let Porsche keep my existing deposit.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:00 PM
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I agree, free superchargers for life on an existing network is tempting, even at a premium.

The more relevant question - how much are YOU willing to spend on this car and what are your expectations at that price?

I'll go deep into the $80s with options but beyond that I'm out. At some point we are just paying for the sticker on the nose.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:17 PM
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I want Panamera 4 E-Hybrid performance (maybe slightly faster 0-60 time), Mission E styling, similar tech to Panamera but maybe more futuristic interior, and a 250 mile range. Charging network is not critical because my wife's Volvo XC90 will be our road trip car.

I'll pay $100k - $140k assuming it's the "middle of the range" model.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:23 PM
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cost of supercharging is not the concern - it's the availability of the fast charging (at a fair price, price is not really a concern when road tripping, it's the fast stop that I value, virtually any reasonable charing price is fair given how infrequent usage of such a network is with home charging) - 10-20 minute stops enables you to take the occasional road trip beyond the 1 charge range - that's a big feature IMHO - and one I commonly use with my Tesla's

my biggest goals for the Taycan are:
  1. minimize my exposure to Tesla's business model - current I have two potential boat anchors if Elon's drops a ball juggling - I'd be more comfortable with just one potential boat anchor
  2. upgrade fit/finish and overall quality - I have no problems with my Model S/X and the fit/finish issues aren't as horrible as they are made out to be - that being said existing car manufactures do better than Tesla
  3. performance - instant torque brings a smile to my face every time I'm in the car - I don't need 2.8 second 0-60 - but I'm fairly addicted to sub 4 second effortless drama free acceleration - so much so that virtually all gas cars now disappoint me.
  4. fast L2 charging - if they only do 32 AMP L2 charing that will give me serous pause - 48 amps minimum for L2 charging is my goal - I'll tolerate 40 amps (which is what you'd get from a typical RV hook up NEMA 14-50 plug in the US - 48 amp charging rate is a 60 amp circuit - Tesla supports 72/80 amp configurations which is 90/100 amp breakers)
  5. range has to be 280 miles solid which would match my current EV
  6. air-con has to blow actual cold air - a lot of EV's have wimpy AC since they no longer have a mechanical compressor
  7. I'm hearing good things about a very forward looking approach to infotainment that should put them on par with Tesla
  8. some stamina to run at max performance for some length of time - I don't need it to be a track car, but it should be able to outperform a Tesla stamina wise when asked to do so…

I'm willing to spec out a Mission-E that would be the equivalent of a Panamera 4S nicely optioned…(base price appears to be $103,000 for the 4S) - I'd consider the two cars to be equivalent with the Mission E being quicker

I fear:
  1. range will suffer - if it's actually a 220 mile car that will give me pause
  2. porsche charging network is vaporware
  3. the base model will be useless
  4. Porsche will fail to embrace OTA software updates as a method of enhancing their customers ownership experience
  5. compatibility will existing 480 volt Fast DC chargers in addition to the their proprietary 800 volt system
  6. price will option into the low 140's before you have a decent car
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:40 PM
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I also occasionally use supercharger for the rare but necessary "super busy day"

around thanks giving we have much family coming to visit - there is inevitably a day like the one below (real data not made up)

1. one driving trip from San Jose to SFO
2. one driving trip from SFO to San Jose
3. San Jose to Aptos
4. Aptos to San Jose
5. San Jose to SFO again - we are now at 10% battery
6. stop at the San Mateo Tesla Supercharger - 10 minutes
7. San Mateo to San Jose
8. San Jose back to Aptos for the night - charge over night

the 10 minute supercharging stop make the whole day possible which is just slightly over the maximum range of my 85 kWh Tesla Model S P85D…

this of course only happens once a year, but it does happen - it's the one time a year that isn't a road trip where an EV needs a fast charging stop - this is why I'm concerned about Porsche's charging network - the other 364 days a year home charging overnight (2-3 hours for typical daily use @ 48 amps) - and for the 4-7 road trips again supercharging makes it all possible.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:48 PM
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just as I feared - the Panamera 4S options into the mid $140's - if you trick it out - http://www.porsche-code.com/PJJTLRQ4

I did realize however - that I will be skipping the PCCB's - brakes are used so infrequently on EV's - that I'm be very very curious to see if Porsche even offers them as an option - maybe the new Ceramic carbon brakes they have on the Cayenne will be the option - still un-necesary IMHO - LOL for ceramic brakes on an EV with regenerative braking! Hadn't thought about that!
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by daveo4porsche View Post

I fear:
  1. range will suffer - if it's actually a 220 mile car that will give me pause
  2. porsche charging network is vaporware
  3. the base model will be useless
  4. Porsche will fail to embrace OTA software updates as a method of enhancing their customers ownership experience
  5. compatibility will existing 480 volt Fast DC chargers in addition to the their proprietary 800 volt system
  6. price will option into the low 140's before you have a decent car
Add to this list 7. VW (or Ford, GM, BMW, MB - or all of them) will have cars with better performance for less money by 2025!.
I have been starting my configurations with the base Panamera and, frankly, not finding many options to add. Full leather and maybe paint color, radar cruise...well under $100k.
It is amazing how much of a cars character is derived from the engine/gearbox isn't it? What "secret sauce" will Porsche add to set it apart from the pack when it comes to character? Add NVH back in?
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by unclewill View Post
After driving the Model 3, Model S, Model X, Bolt, i3, Leaf and owning a Fiat 500e I've come to realize that they all drive the same on the street, practically speaking.<br />
<br /><br />And an $85,000 Corvette Gran Sport drives pretty much the same as a $150,000 911GTS, but people still buy the 911. Don't think there's anything magical about EVs that'll make it any different. I've driven a P85D, sat in many Model S's and X's and crawled all over a Model 3. I have less than zero interest in any of them. I'd buy a a Bolt before I bought one of the exceedingly appliance like Teslas. But if the Taycan is a good car, stylish, great interior, etc., on top of being an EV, I'd definitely be interested.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:42 AM
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The fundamental issue is the car itself - whats its selling point - why would you buy the Porsche version over the Audi or BMW version of the same appliance - there is nothing special about electric motors, zero.

How about charging - thats easy, the charging time is governed by I (amps) and V (voltage (electrical power = IV) - simple. As the OP said EVs when driven are more or less the same with different skin or interior.

As a consequence, there is zero reason to pay a significant premium for a Porsche model, like for like, over a Tesla/BMW/MB/Audi etc.

Handling - lets just forget about it, when cars weigh 2.2 tonnes its about optimisation in a relatively rigid range and with diminishing benefit. There will be little difference between vehicles of this mass from the quality manufacturers.

So it comes down to price and that battle will be savage (the network roll out in europe will be quick due to forced conversion, all of which, laughingly, is un-costed)

A badge is not a competitive advantage in this space a product, that can be differentiated is.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
<br /><br />And an $85,000 Corvette Gran Sport drives pretty much the same as a $150,000 911GTS, but people still buy the 911. Don't think there's anything magical about EVs that'll make it any different. I've driven a P85D, sat in many Model S's and X's and crawled all over a Model 3. I have less than zero interest in any of them. I'd buy a a Bolt before I bought one of the exceedingly appliance like Teslas. But if the Taycan is a good car, stylish, great interior, etc., on top of being an EV, I'd definitely be interested.
Put on a blindfold and ride passenger in a GS then a 911GTS - the difference between the rear mounted flat six/PDK and the front mounted V8/six speed is HUGE - the lap times may be similar but the drivetrains define the character of the cars.
Groundhog is on the same page as me, porky EVs cannot handle like lightweight sports cars, the electric drivetrains are indistinguishable, Tesla has set the bar on in-car tech, so what are we left with? Fit and finish, quality materials, charging times and network, body style and brand are considerations but price will rule. How many $$ per kWh? How many $$ per mile? I'm also becoming less comfortable paying for the German health care system when I could choose to buy an equivalent, if not superior, American product.
Of course we are all waiting to see the final Taycan before we judge, right?
Unfortunately, it will be a classic rollout - ship a bunch of auto "reviewers" to an exotic locale for an all-expenses-paid vacation to drive a fleet of Taycans then go home and gush about how great they are - say something negative at the risk of getting blacklisted. The Taycan will be on the cover of every magazine in the airport. Every headline will read - "Taycan, is it a Tesla Killer?" It will be tough to make judgements with all of the marketing noise.
If I end up buying one of these things I'm throwing the keys to Doug DeMuro first crack out of the box!
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:56 AM
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There is a lot more to a car than the drive train. Brakes, suspension, chassis, steering, etc.... I'm surprised that a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts don't get this. A Corvette Z06 is much faster around any track than a Porsche 911. But most of us are willing to pay almost double the price. Why is that? Because the 911 has a flat 6?

Tesla has built the standard for performance EV's only because they were first to the game. But the Model S is not a performance car. It's a one trick pony that's fast in a straight line. Braking, steering, and handling are terrible. It can't make it around a track without going into limp mode. Kinda like a Nissan GTR can only do couple of launch controls before going into limp mode or a Corvette Z06 overheating on the track. This is where Porsche will have a superior vehicle. Yes it will have better fit and finish etc. But I'm confident it will be a better drivers car that can push the limits like we all expect and take it like a champ.

EV's are a very new product. Companies have only just begun spending a lot of money to develop these vehicles. Once the momentum gets going I'm willing to bet we will all be surprised how companies like Porsche can make an EV better than we could ever imagined.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by manitou202 View Post
There is a lot more to a car than the drive train. Brakes, suspension, chassis, steering, etc.... I'm surprised that a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts don't get this. A Corvette Z06 is much faster around any track than a Porsche 911. But most of us are willing to pay almost double the price. Why is that? Because the 911 has a flat 6?

Tesla has built the standard for performance EV's only because they were first to the game. But the Model S is not a performance car. It's a one trick pony that's fast in a straight line. Braking, steering, and handling are terrible. It can't make it around a track without going into limp mode. Kinda like a Nissan GTR can only do couple of launch controls before going into limp mode or a Corvette Z06 overheating on the track. This is where Porsche will have a superior vehicle. Yes it will have better fit and finish etc. But I'm confident it will be a better drivers car that can push the limits like we all expect and take it like a champ.

EV's are a very new product. Companies have only just begun spending a lot of money to develop these vehicles. Once the momentum gets going I'm willing to bet we will all be surprised how companies like Porsche can make an EV better than we could ever imagined.
Oh, I get it....but the fact is all EVs are going to be using essentially the same platform - the "skateboard" - with heavy batteries low, flat and between the axles. 911 steering is (was?) arguably the industry standard for feel and feedback because the weight of the drivetrain is over the rear wheels allowing Porsche to dial back the power assist. The rear weight bias also defines the handling characteristics of the car which does give it a unique character. All this is lost with the 4000lb+ skateboard. I also ask why a Porsche costs double a Corvette - but remember Porsche is per unit the most profitable car company in the world. Porsche owners pay A LOT for the sticker on the nose.
Don't give the Model S a hard time for being a street car - it was never intended to be a track car. Its insane acceleration is simply a by product of the electric motors torque characteristics and battery capacity. The Taycan will be the same. Shave a tenth or two off the 1/4 mile times just to be "better" perhaps but of no consequence in 99% of driving. Maybe the Taycan will be awesome on the track but who cares what a 4500lb four door sedan (or wagon) does at a track? Take the Panamera or Cayenne instead. LOL!! Perhaps it will stop 10 feet shorter than a Tesla from 70 mph? We'll see.
I'm basically counting on the interior of the Taycan to wow me which is something the Tesla just does not do. I'm looking for supple leather, nice stitching and high quality interior surfaces with top quality fit and finish. To me, that will make the difference but who knows what Porsche will deliver? Hopefully you are right that the clever engineers will surprise us by making the Taycan better than we can imagine!! : )
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by manitou202 View Post
There is a lot more to a car than the drive train. Brakes, suspension, chassis, steering, etc.... I'm surprised that a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts don't get this. .
Agreed. It doesn't surprise me that the average Tesla owner doesn't get it, as most of them have never owned or even driven a performance car in their lives. But it does surprise me that some enthusiasts think like that.

For those of you who think there's no way an EV can perform, how do you explain the VW IDR demolition of the Pike's Peak record?

And forgetting performance for a minute, looks and interiors matter to a large percentage of the buyer pool and Tesla's couldn't be more generic and meh in that regard, particularly their interiors. The last generation Panamera had an interior that was 10x better than Tesla's Model S. I expect the Taycan will as well.
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