daveo4porsche

I agree with all of Elon's faults (and on the Tesla forums I'm often pointing them out) there is _NO_ question Tesla could be better with execution and I'm not sure Elon is the best person to "run" the company - but his vision and drive are hard to replace and hard to separate - he bullies/inspires people to do things others think can't be done - but man oh man he just needs to keep his mouth shut and deliver rather than telling what he's going to deliver on some outrageous schedule - me thinks if he would just stop predicting when he'll release something things would be sooooooo much better - picture him actually "releasing" these things by surprise with no foreshadowing - he'd own the planet by now because people couldn't keep up.

he is chaotic-good for sure - but man it's painful to watch and to know it could actually be going soooo much better - the money thing will work itself out or it won't - and I think we'll see in the next 9 month's if Tesla can at least become self sufficient....

in the mean time where is my Taycan? and is the design going to be worth the wait?

RonF

There are so much negativities of Tesla on the internet. Some of those were put out with a purpose but many are just because those are all we are hearing and they fit our personal agenda whatever they are. If you can waste 15 minutes of your time to watch this you might be able to learn something, or maybe not. Smart people can always make their own judgement after hearing from ALL sides of the story.

cometguy

I think this says it best: Elon should just keep his mouth shut and let the results speak for themselves. He's obviously somewhat on "the spectrum" and has troubles with his social skills. But he is making sooo much off of SpaceX, and the US Government appears ready to keep funnelling billions of dollars to SpaceX, so Elon will supposedly have lots more money to pour into Tesla if he thinks he can get over this hump (whether he gets over the hump and can make Tesla profitable is a big question mark, but he's crazy enough and has enough money from other sources that he isn't going to let Tesla go under without a serious fight in coming years to try to attain profitability). I don't like Musk's personality at all, and I root for other rocket manufacturers to give SpaceX a run for its money, but I do want to see Tesla succeed long-term because it has been and will be beneficial to all of us in the long run (and I never plan to buy a Tesla, either; I've driven a Model S and ridden in a Model 3, and they are fascinating cars, but I'd never give up my Panamera E-Hybrid for a Model S).

wogamax

When somebody has 12, going on 14 posts, I assume there's a "motive" out of the gate. Sorry. When their posts seem to go too far, and elicit a "typical Tesla fanboy style" comment, I'm more like, yeah. Then again, some just come on too strong, too soon.

I'm not sure EVs would've happened in the US, in 5-10 years w/o Tesla. Industry is back at it, as we can see. Everyone wants a truck, so they can fill it with cheap gasoline. /s I guess I recently feel I've learned that market power ain't much different than big government. Both take control of what you're going to get. I like trucks, not regularly.

hacker-pschorr

LOL
Do you have any clue how many times Porsche has been on the brink of financial disaster? I can think of 3 cases in my lifetime.

GM was in the red for decades, continually being bailed out.

Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lotus, Lamborghini.....this is going to be a long list...........of car companies with far worse historic tract records on the criteria you put forth here. Do you actually have any clue about the automotive world and its history outside of being a Tesla detractor?

Elon's business model & Tesla are far form perfect (everyone knows that) and Elon may not be the best CEO. This wouldn't be close to the first time the person responsible for the success of the startup not being qualified to run it.
However, with all the negatives, here we have someone with zero automotive experience getting the big boys to take notice.

Don't come back with the fraud accusations of his carbon credits and other Gov subsidies unless you are willing to also list every other industry with similar Gov bennies and take into account every single penny of Government money the big three have sucked up over the past 100 years. Pile on top of that all the tax credits handed out to foreign car companies to build their plants here.... "But, But...Elon tax money...." Yea, whatever.

Hearing all this negativity about Elon in a Porsche forum is rich. Has the Tesla suffered anything on par with the 996 / Boxster engine fiasco??? Yea I went there.

Jebus...some of you make Elon out to be the next John Z DeLorean.

Full disclosure: I do NOT own a Tesla.

I'm actually not sure how to take you serious when the topic of sales in their segment is brought up and you reply with the F150. It tells my you don't even understand the base of this discussion.

lightweight with a twitter account....that's almost as funny as the people comparing him to Bernie Madoff (different thread).

groundhog

LOL we are in the modern era of what is known as continuous disclosure obligations. Guidance is exactly that, not something a CEO can define on a whim - we're talking the here and now.

The facts are there for all to see.

No top 100 car in the US, $717m loss at -$3.06 per share and the competition is rolling out nice products.

I highlighted the F series for very good reasons - that is the type of product US customers are buying, they love trucks, plus over 100 other models in preference to anything produced by Tesla. This makes tesla a niche player which has consequences. The trucks that the US loves so much mean the big US market players have nice balance sheets to play with.

Thus the discussion is pretty simple - the competition is coming, and for Tesla to stay in business it will have to compete with the major manufacturers who are profitable and are starting to produce some nice products e.g. the Taycan. These major companies have been smart, they are doing what is known as "fast following" basically learning from the mistakes of Tesla. Moreover both Daimler and Toyota lost patience with Tesla (hence selling out) - there was no gain being there.

The consequences of this are simple - the higher end and large scale manufacturers will pitch product at the Model S and the Model 3 price points. The pricing as yet is undecided but it will inform the Taycan price point and I would put money on it being launched in the US at a small premium to the Model S P100D.

Importantly, for Tesla in terms of implications - the major manufacturers are in good shape with strong balance sheets so they can work on margins to get sales. Tesla can't, as it currently stands every car it makes is a loss maker.

Hubris.

To the gentleman who feels "Musk" putting a Tesla in space was a major achievement - I suggest you go back in time and look at the wonderful aspirational history of NASA that ultimately lead to a man on the moon. A triumph of engineering, drive and innovation.

"We choose to go to the Moon! We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too." (JFK Sept 12th, 1962).

In contrast Musk did it to take the heat off the well reported Q1 problems that ultimately lead to a $785m loss - there was no altruism, just cynicism.

unclewill

I would say more like 20+ years. Just a short time ago VW and the rest of the euros were pushing diesel and, well, we all know how well that worked out!

I also get the feeling that Musk could write a check tomorrow to cover $785m and if Tesla were to go up for sale all of the major automakers, oil companies, tech companies etc etc would be in a massive bidding war to get control of their production facilities, battery plant, technology, contracts and infrastructure.

The fact that a Porsche forum on Rennlist is dominated by Tesla/Elon Musk talk is pretty telling isn't it?

RonF

Watch the VW diesel episode of "Dirty Money" on Netflix some of you should realize how you're barking at the wrong CEO. We don't usually make our car purchasing decisions based on how we like or dislike companies' CEO's. However if you must you at least need to know the truth about them.

unclewill

I'm not really barking at any particular CEO, just observing a sea change in the entire industry. Only Nissan and GM seem to have been developing EV technology given that everyone else is years behind Tesla in actually getting dedicated EV platforms to the US market, much less the charging infrastructure and autonomous driving. Toyota is still clinging to hydrogen fuel cells! I'll check out the Netflix show, sounds interesting...

Diesel is a classic "choose any two" scenario:
Power. Efficiency. Clean emissions.

RonF

I was following up on you comment but did not mean it's you who were barking at the wrong CEO. I say that only because there are many there who for whatever reasons do not like Tesla but what they could do was only to throw unjustified personal attacks at Musk. VW cheated on emissions because, unlike the other two on your list, it is what consumers can not see. Unfortunately what you can't see, poisonous NoX emissions, the worst kind, can hurt you badly if not kill you. Those executives knew full well of that they just wouldn't care long as it serves their greedy purposes.

unclewill

Diesels are great for steady state operation such as long highway slogs and fixed rpm running in a boat or industrial application but in variable rpm stop and go situations they are very difficult to tune. Lesson learned is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. I will watch the show, but I imagine that the decision makers hitched their wagons to the diesel star and put loads of pressure on engineering to make a square peg fit into a round hole, resulting in cheating emissions tests. Once the numbers were hit, it seems nobody asked any questions, they just went with it - until they got busted of course. Aside from a few innovations such as electronic fuel injection, computerized engine management and variable valve timing, the gasoline engine and drivetrain under the hood of any new 2018 vehicle is essentially the same as the one under the hood of a Model T and the same rules and limitations apply. That's what makes EVs so fascinating to me, truly a clean sheet approach using new battery technology that has resulted in a better mousetrap.

groundhog

The principal of the electric motor hasn't evolved dramatically since it was first invented - the packaging has improved, moreover the physics hasn't changed and isn't going to. What is often apparent is a large proportion of EV owners have little understanding of Maxwells equations or understand the implications and limitations of Amperes, Faradays, Biot-Savart or indeed Lorenz' laws - this means its difficult to have a meaningful technical discussion.

In terms of the battery, it has been around a long time and in modern form was invented (or rather rediscovered) by Alessandro Volta in the late 18th century. Thus the battery like the electric motor was discovered/invented before the internal combustion engine. Voltas battery consisted of a series of anodes and cathodes separated from one another by a paper separator soaked in salt water as the electrolyte. A modern lithium ion battery is no different e.g. it has anodes separated from cathodes by separators, in this instance the electrolyte is not salt water but lithium salts suspended in an organic solvent or similar.

The energy density is simply dependant on and proportional to the amount of Li ions you can get to move to the anode. Conversely the amount of power released on discharge is governed by the rate at which Li ions move back across to the cathode (and thus the rate of movement of electrons). No different to the principles of the galvanic pile (the compositions of the anodes, cathodes, separators and electrolytes are different and thats it). The only significant advance on the horizon is the development of genuine solid state cells.

Here the energy density is increased by removing/limiting the aqueous/organic phase from the electrolyte and thereby increasing the relative proportion of lithium salts (or potentially other salts) and thus the energy density. This is easier said than done and will likely take another 5 or so years.

What appears new to many EV owners is not new to engineers and physicists - its not even new to Porsche (they designed, built and raced them at the turn of the century before last ~ 1900).

The mousetrap is very well understood and thats why it has a mixed reception at this point in time, and why many are not interested at all. Moreover, for the vast majority of people not only is it not a better mousetrap its less cost effective one too.

Non of the above changes anything in relation to price of the Taycan - the business case will drive that and that business case can not ignore Tesla.

daveo4porsche

trader247

Bravo

groundhog

The facts are just that facts, the science is just that, science - ignorance of business principles, corporate governance, physics and engineering is just that. Ignorance.

I note no one is disputing the facts or the science or business case (c'mon which parts - car sales, science really? heavy cars use more energy to get to a higher velocity than a lighter car and that energy has to come from some where? Tesla has lost more than $1.4 billion over the last two quarters, - is anyone disputing the above?

I'll happily have a reasoned and well informed debate - around the science and engineering - I won't get involved in the shill politics of the environment movement and Tesla.

The Taycan will win out - simply because Porsche are not running an agenda - Porsche are running a business