RonF

Most people still don't aware of EV's handling advantages. Yes they are heavy but most hypercars are pretty heavy too. Not to mention Porsche is not Lotus or Miata either. On the other hand the skid board design allows for very low CoG, it has a near ideal weight distribution with most weight at lower center instead of front and aft, it has instantaneous torque and super fast pedal response (electrical instead of mechanical/hydraulic). These are all car designer's dreams come true. With low CoG even the added weight may not be that bad a thing because it contributes more to the vertical than longitudinal forces compare to conventional layouts. Physics just favors the EV you can't change that. I have no doubt Porsche have the engineering prowess but just don't have the confidence that they are ready to take full advantage of that like Tesla is willing to. Porsche's marketing department always has a bigger voice than its engineering department. I knew full well of that ever since I got my 08' Cayman S. Others I'm sure have had the same feelings before too. It looks to me Tesla has a very smart engineering team that are able to make the best out of it. I still hope it's a Porsche EV that will be in my garage although I'm not going sacrifice any of my enjoyments of a super nice (to me) car to wait for that. Like I said life is too short and you don't know if even that could be an over-optimistic statement.

GreggT

I know the title for this thread is......'I hope Porsche realizes that price is gonna swell these cars'.......but I'll add, I wonder if Porsche realizes how many negative comments are populating other threads about how the Taycan is apparently not going to look like the 2015 white beauty but rather pretty darn conventional 4-door sedan.
Of course they could all be wrong.....or, they're right and Porsche doesn't care since they're aiming to a larger demo, with a lower price point, and making as many as they can.

Archimedes

Agreed. That I really paid $35,000 for though... and which actually has a really nice interior.

Archimedes

I've driven a Model S. Sure there's a low CG, but there's no handling 'advantage' of that car over anything but other severely bloated luxury cars.

RonF

That's what I meant when I said I worry about what would be the marketing decision. It might not want it to look better than Panamera for the "market segment placement" thing. That would be a real low limit for the new car.

With lighter more nimble new models, and like I said Tesla is learning very fast, don't expect it not to eventually invade the Porsche territory. Looking at those videos I think it already has. That Porsche was making greatest sport cars ten years ago, although not everyone agrees with that of course, does not guarantee it will be making greatest sports car now or ten years from now. A lot of things are happening very fast nowadays. We'll see when reviewers start to pit the best from Tesla against the best form Porsche, hopefully represented by the Taycan. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

wogamax

My reverence to car brands has never been lower. Somewhere after rebuilding a 3.2, and a few thousand track miles, the romance boiled down to form following function. That, and maybe honesty. My point, to Groundhog, and Daveo, would be recreational track EVs are closer than you think. Already here, if you have the resources for a 43KWh (~15 C-rate), A123 battery, and the means to recharge it between sessions. I don't think it has sunk in, for many, how the 'Ring record is owned by a hybrid, Pikes Peak an EV, and how Goodwood has only F1 cars in front of VW ID R and, of all things, ...the Chinese NIO EP9. In the last month, they beat *everything* else. And, no, not one of these events was Paris-Dakar. One of the reasons we haven't heard more track news, yet, is because few are putting the best car around the best batteries. An upstart like NIO was on VW's heals, at Goodwood, and posted a 6:45 'Ring time because enough engineers globally broke from "reverence", to prove what existing technology can do. I can't afford it, but am sure I could stretch one of these things for one helluva 20 minute session.

If Tesla actually has sights on an energy-density breakthrough, maybe "200KWh" won't be such an anchor? You can have a low C-rate (less power) per cell, and make up for it with more cells. You can also have "Full Self Drive". Right?

laranja

Does anyone have a problem with Teslas being essentially un-fixable outside of the Tesla system? You can't buy parts, and there are no indies to repair things. Not to mention that the factory gets logs and data from your every move when you drive their cars.

Interesting video about a guy who works on Teslas on his own.


I'm pretty sure other manufacturers are envious of the level of control Tesla exerts. Would Porsche move to that
type of model if they could - I think they will try.

daveo4porsche

I think they are already moving there - but yeah Tesla is a black-box closed system…the data is less of a concern and it is a trend - one of the reasons Porsche doesn't support Android Auto is the data harvesting requirements from google…but I don't think Tesla is unique in this trajectory.

Archimedes

Are we watching the same video? All I see in that video is a Model S under steering all over the place and a driver sliding the car around because the torque makes it easy to break the rear wheels loose. Given the fact that 99.999% of the driving public won't be drifting their cars on public roads, the only thing I take from that video is that the Model 3 likes to under steer, which is not surprising for a mid sized sedan.

Could Tesla build a decent handling EV at some point in future, assuming it survives? Of course, it's possible. Do I expect Porsche will have a better handling car right out of the gate? For sure. I'd be shocked if the chassis that Porsche puts under the Taycan isn't better than average.

My issue with Tesla is that the hype has always been way ahead of the product, and I have zero interest in buying hype. If/when the product catches up to the hype, I'd be interested.

unclewill

Nothing against the Golf R BTW, it's a great car! But it is the original fast toaster! : )

RonF

I'm talking about second part of the video that the Model 3 beat the lap record by more than one second. And that's not even the latest performance version of the Model 3. I'm sure that course record includes many runs by Porsche cars too. Don't try to force yourself to believe those years old internet myths that EV and Tesla can not be worthy track cars. Things have been moving very rapidly in this area.

It's not a hype. Tesla single handedly moved us into the EV age especially the high performance EV age. Do you think Porsche, Jaguar, Audi, Aston Martin, Maserati and everyone else would ever be so interested in making EV's if not that Tesla has proved what an (relatively) affordable production EV can do and forced their hands?

groundhog

Physics just favours the EV lol - unfortunately physics can't hide the mass and, unfortunately the results don't support your contention.

Red Bull Ring - GT4 ~ 1:50, S P85D ~2:03 (TG test).
Contidrom, "base" 991.2 Carrera ~1:32, S P85D ~1:40 (Auto Bild test).
VIR, - GT4 ~ 2:54, S P85D ~ 3:17 (Car and Driver).

The only trick EVs have is the one off 1/4 and thats it.

EVs were invented a long time ago. In the US EVs account for less than 1% of road vehicles. Ford F series truck sales dwarf Tesla model S sales. Unfortunately Tesla has never manufactured a 35k EV in volume, one of Musks many broken promises. Q2 losses of $3.06 per share - yet another loss, a mere drop in the ocean at $717m.

The VW ID R and NIO EP9 are not production cars and not even remotely close to production cars.

For reference the ring record is held by Porsche, the 919 did it in less the 6 minutes - a minute quicker than the NIO. What time did the P85D or 100D do round the ring, oh they didn't because they go into limp mode due to the fact they cant stave off the heat generated by the draw down required to repeatedly accelerate a 2.2 tonne battery pack.

The principle reason you don't hear any track news is simple - very few want to drive them around a track.

They are daily drivers, enjoy them for what they are - unfortunately it seems that many Tesla disciples struggle with this - perhaps they should have purchased a real performance car in the first place e.g. one that can accelerate, brake, go round corners and do it all day long.

Perhaps a move to a Taycan will stop that "I'm driving an appliance" feeling. Looks like an appliance, sounds like an appliance, is an appliance.

I like appliances, I have fridge, a microwave, a dish washer they are great for everyday use - much like an EV. I'll probably buy one when the economics makes sense and I'll use it just like my other appliances.

But when it comes to driving round a track or doing a road rally or plain simple having fun - I'll be in one of my Porsches.

daveo4porsche

but he has shipped 50,000 sub 50k 310 mile range EV's - yes Elon has had some mis-steps, but in the grand scheme of things his accomplishments out way his short falls - Tesla and Space X have accomplished great things and in particular things every one said it couldn't be done. Lots of companies miss their price points - but really you're going to fault him for only shipping 50,000 Model 3's and still cranking them out -more and more by the week?

wow - just wow.

as far as EV's matching track cars - none of them have the stamina or longevity - so far what we've seen are purpose built cars - I doubt the Audi hill climb vehicle was running with any battery thermal management for longevity…I can drive my GT3 off of the dealer's lot and onto the track - flog it for several hours of track time and then drive it home...EV's have a long ways to go and I'm one of their biggest fans - just ask groundhog ;-)

daveo4porsche

Tesla is up in after hours trading - must hurt to be a short

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA?ltr=1

300.84+2.70 (+0.91%)
At close: 4:00PM EDT328.01 +27.17 (9.03%)
After hours: 7:42PM EDT

don't believe any Elon schedule
don't believe the exact feature set Elon states
don't assume Elon has the same expectations as you
but don't bet against the trend Elon is stating - his timing may be off and he might over promise - but the direction is pretty spot on - it's just the exact schedule where he's wrong most of the time.

Archimedes