I hope Porsche realizes that price is gonna sell these cars
07-19-2018, 11:53 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
the article is not quite a slam dunk
it's from March of 2017
it admit's they are mostly Level 2 and 50 kW stations (no 20 min charges with 50 KW)
LOL - 250 "stalls" nation wide - 50 stations 5 chargers each…
it's better than nothing - but still mostly vaporware - and it's doesn't look comprehensive in my opinion vs. what Tesla has accomplished with the existing Supercharger network and continues to expand.
it's from March of 2017
it admit's they are mostly Level 2 and 50 kW stations (no 20 min charges with 50 KW)
That’s mainly for level 2 chargers and 50 kW DC chargers,
Electrify America will build a long distance high speed highway network consisting of approximately 50+ charging stations along high‐traffic corridors between metropolitan areas. These stations will focus on 150 kW and 320 kW DC fast chargers; each station will have 5 plugs on average.
07-20-2018, 06:08 AM
#77
Charging infrastructure is for people that need to drive their car more than 300 miles per day...how many folks only have an EV for that currently? Electrify America has already begun building 800 Volt charging stations and hopefully they will have a good amount by the time this car arrives around December next year. https://www.electrifyamerica.com/
Every one of the 191 Porsche stores will have multiple 800 Volt stations and as the car comes with the standard plug you can use any of the other companies stations: https://www.plugshare.com/
As for why a Porsche should be more than a Tesla the fact that the car has a better fit and finish, way better interior materials including leather options, twice as fast charging, expected better handling and braking, superior buying and leasing options, better resale value, and most importantly the car is built in Germany and needs to be imported here which also raises the price. Why is a 911 more than a Corvette? I expect to see multiple versions of the Taycan as according to CAR magazine their could be 3 models with single and dual motors like on the Tesla range. We will see what the final pricing and configurations look like next year but we are now approaching 80 deposits at our store without the full details. I hope Porsche is planning on building a lot of these cars!
Every one of the 191 Porsche stores will have multiple 800 Volt stations and as the car comes with the standard plug you can use any of the other companies stations: https://www.plugshare.com/
As for why a Porsche should be more than a Tesla the fact that the car has a better fit and finish, way better interior materials including leather options, twice as fast charging, expected better handling and braking, superior buying and leasing options, better resale value, and most importantly the car is built in Germany and needs to be imported here which also raises the price. Why is a 911 more than a Corvette? I expect to see multiple versions of the Taycan as according to CAR magazine their could be 3 models with single and dual motors like on the Tesla range. We will see what the final pricing and configurations look like next year but we are now approaching 80 deposits at our store without the full details. I hope Porsche is planning on building a lot of these cars!
(2) way better interior materials - few thousand bucks
(3) leather options lol
(4) twice as fast charging - on whose network, how many chargers, how many stalls at the dealers are you serious - I live in a city of 2m people there is one Porsche dealership.
(5) expected better handling - you mean stickier tires
(6) better braking - how? - more regen? we're talking vehicles weighing over two tonnes = who cares
(7) handling - the S does very well for what it is - the Taycan won't be much better
Corvette Vs Porsche - ok really, (1) engine position (2) engine (3) PDK (4) because of the engine type and position - the whole look of the car
Porsche Vs Tesla - we're down to leather options and fit and finish - please don't try and tell us that Porsche motors or Porsche batteries are significantly better than the Tesla motors or batteries................because that would be complete and utter BS.
Good luck with your sales pitch
I'm glad you have 80 interested parties - you obviously are assuming they aren't looking at other options I'll counter the above - I recently attended a lunch with between 100 and 150 Porsche owners (VHNW and HNW), it was a good lunch - the after dinner speaker (a rep) asked who was interested in the Taycan - I counted two hands.......two out of 100-150........for further colour the people attending were serial sports car buyers......the minimum current (as in concurrently owning) level of ownership was three Porsche sports cars (not Macans and Cayennes) and the maximum was eighteen (and excluding other hi performance sports cars).
Perhaps it was a tough audience or the food was poor or perhaps no one was really interested - the problem Porsche face is the lack of meaningful differentiation - all manufacurers will offer fast charging - however that will be dependent on the extant infrastructure. Engines same, location, same, batteries same - it'll come down to price and arguments about fit and finish or my leather is better than your leather.
Porsche has a problem and they know it.
Last edited by groundhog; 07-20-2018 at 06:31 AM.
07-20-2018, 11:55 AM
#78
Rennlist Member
+1 for groundhogs comments
I expect the following material advantages in my Porsche Taycan
I expect the following material advantages in my Porsche Taycan
- better fit and finish
- better stamina for car's high end performance
- faster charging at one of the 16 800 volt charging stations nationwide if I arrive and the previous car hasn't depleted the accumulator so I can actually use the fast charge rate
- better style with the Taycan if Porsche stays true to the concept.
- slightly better handling and braking (Tesla's brakes have no cooling ducts and have serious stamina issues under heavy use)
07-21-2018, 01:31 PM
#79
I understand range issues in general, but why do you put emphasis on 300 miles? It seems you currently drive an EV with less than 100 miles range. If that works for you, what will change in your driving requirements?
Is it more like you commute with the 500e and a Taycan would be more of a weekend car with less access to charging? Just trying to think through this.
I have recently been considering an electric motorcycle. There is a lot of discussion around frequent quick charging vs. big batteries. I would personally be fine with 100 miles on a 10 minute charge, if we could get there.
My car currently takes 10 minutes to fill anyway, really I use 93 octane, ethanol free pumps, and they are usually off to the side and not super fast.
Is it more like you commute with the 500e and a Taycan would be more of a weekend car with less access to charging? Just trying to think through this.
I have recently been considering an electric motorcycle. There is a lot of discussion around frequent quick charging vs. big batteries. I would personally be fine with 100 miles on a 10 minute charge, if we could get there.
My car currently takes 10 minutes to fill anyway, really
I use 93 octane, ethanol free pumps, and they are usually off to the side and not super fast.
07-21-2018, 09:12 PM
#80
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I understand range issues in general, but why do you put emphasis on 300 miles? It seems you currently drive an EV with less than 100 miles range. If that works for you, what will change in your driving requirements?
Is it more like you commute with the 500e and a Taycan would be more of a weekend car with less access to charging? Just trying to think through this.
I have recently been considering an electric motorcycle. There is a lot of discussion around frequent quick charging vs. big batteries. I would personally be fine with 100 miles on a 10 minute charge, if we could get there.
My car currently takes 10 minutes to fill anyway, really I use 93 octane, ethanol free pumps, and they are usually off to the side and not super fast.
Is it more like you commute with the 500e and a Taycan would be more of a weekend car with less access to charging? Just trying to think through this.
I have recently been considering an electric motorcycle. There is a lot of discussion around frequent quick charging vs. big batteries. I would personally be fine with 100 miles on a 10 minute charge, if we could get there.
My car currently takes 10 minutes to fill anyway, really
I use 93 octane, ethanol free pumps, and they are usually off to the side and not super fast.However, I think you're right and as others have mentioned it really is less about total range, but the time it takes for the car to be charged to full capacity. I would much rather have an EV that only has a 100 mile range if it that 100 mile range could be reached after just 2 minutes of charging, versus an EV that had 300 mile range but takes 20 minutes to reach that full capacity.
07-21-2018, 09:29 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
+1 for range is a non-issue
the really issue is fast charging availability - if you had ample fast chargers and could get 150 miles in about 5 minutes - I think the problem largely evaporates…but 200+ seems to do quite well (Chevy Bolt I'm looking at you) and seems a nice compromise between vast range and daily usage - it's ashamed it can only charge at 55 kW…limiting it's ability to charge really really fast in the face of 150 & 350 kW charging systems…
the really issue is fast charging availability - if you had ample fast chargers and could get 150 miles in about 5 minutes - I think the problem largely evaporates…but 200+ seems to do quite well (Chevy Bolt I'm looking at you) and seems a nice compromise between vast range and daily usage - it's ashamed it can only charge at 55 kW…limiting it's ability to charge really really fast in the face of 150 & 350 kW charging systems…
07-21-2018, 11:19 PM
#82
Burning Brakes
I've had several EV's and have easily managed with less than a rated 100 miles of range. However, range becomes an issue for two reasons. First perception. Second, the rated range gets cut in half during a cold windy drive. This becomes a huge factor during winter driving. A car rated for 100 miles suddenly drops to 50 miles, and that will worry most people.
For the Taycan to be successful, based on other EV's hitting the market, and the Porsche image, it should have a rated range of at least 250 miles. That's my 2 cents anyway.
For the Taycan to be successful, based on other EV's hitting the market, and the Porsche image, it should have a rated range of at least 250 miles. That's my 2 cents anyway.
07-22-2018, 03:05 PM
#83
+1 for range is a non-issue
the really issue is fast charging availability - if you had ample fast chargers and could get 150 miles in about 5 minutes - I think the problem largely evaporates…but 200+ seems to do quite well (Chevy Bolt I'm looking at you) and seems a nice compromise between vast range and daily usage - it's ashamed it can only charge at 55 kW…limiting it's ability to charge really really fast in the face of 150 & 350 kW charging systems…
the really issue is fast charging availability - if you had ample fast chargers and could get 150 miles in about 5 minutes - I think the problem largely evaporates…but 200+ seems to do quite well (Chevy Bolt I'm looking at you) and seems a nice compromise between vast range and daily usage - it's ashamed it can only charge at 55 kW…limiting it's ability to charge really really fast in the face of 150 & 350 kW charging systems…
I do think the range issue has been overblown a bit, but it’s still an issue. The vast majority of the population are not techno nerds who get into planning out fuel stops.
07-23-2018, 01:54 PM
#84
Already have my deposit. I’m not doubting Porsche like a lot of others on this forum it seems. I think it’s going to be an ACTUAL electric sports car . I’m excited for it and I thinkk it’s gonna be a game changer for sure. Porsche is going to hit this one out of the park.I’ll also let you guys know how good it is too. 😂😂😂
07-25-2018, 05:48 PM
#85
Already have my deposit. I’m not doubting Porsche like a lot of others on this forum it seems. I think it’s going to be an ACTUAL electric sports car . I’m excited for it and I thinkk it’s gonna be a game changer for sure. Porsche is going to hit this one out of the park.I’ll also let you guys know how good it is too. ������
07-27-2018, 04:41 PM
#86
What Model S owners are learning vs. Model 3 is that, like gas cars, EVs come at different efficiency. 89 vs. 126 MPGe are sort of like a 25 vs 35mpg car, and that shows in "miles of charge" when both can take 115KW. The more efficient car appears to charge faster.
1. Interior. I don't think a VW Group car beats Tesla, until you're above 80-100k.
2. Materials? TouchScreen qualtiy = Tesla Button quality = Porsche (prefer buttons, myself)
3. Less about leather, than venting, IMO = Porsche
4. "twice as fast charging" - be sure to add time to get to the dealership, or reduce expectations in "the wild".
5. Better handling. Porsche's lower strut towers, I bet, will make for less fore/aft bobbing, but they're both creamy, low cg, cars for anyone who hasn't driven one.
6. Braking - Let's be real. Street will come down to regen settings, and adjustability. One-pedal preference.
7. Track - MS loses to 800v and faster C-rate batteries, but Model 3P would likely win, at 500-1000 pounds lighter.
I think it's about avoiding field charging, accept at home or common destinations. Example, the BMW i3 REx, with its 2.7 gallon gas tank. When your range gets down near 100 miles, for either gas and/or watts, you substantially narrow where you are going to have to fill up. You also go into "the taper" of smaller batteries sooner. 115KW to 350KW is fast, relative to 1.5KW outlets or your typical 10KW wall charger, but greater than 100KW isn't useful if you need to get anywhere near full and your battery is what starts limiting you. A bigger battery keeps you out of the taper, for longer. It's like when gas slows down, for those last 50 cents, when pre-paid. Sitting at a charger, delivering 20KW is not too much fun (1-2 miles/minute).
1. Interior. I don't think a VW Group car beats Tesla, until you're above 80-100k.
2. Materials? TouchScreen qualtiy = Tesla Button quality = Porsche (prefer buttons, myself)
3. Less about leather, than venting, IMO = Porsche
4. "twice as fast charging" - be sure to add time to get to the dealership, or reduce expectations in "the wild".
5. Better handling. Porsche's lower strut towers, I bet, will make for less fore/aft bobbing, but they're both creamy, low cg, cars for anyone who hasn't driven one.
6. Braking - Let's be real. Street will come down to regen settings, and adjustability. One-pedal preference.
7. Track - MS loses to 800v and faster C-rate batteries, but Model 3P would likely win, at 500-1000 pounds lighter.
I think it's about avoiding field charging, accept at home or common destinations. Example, the BMW i3 REx, with its 2.7 gallon gas tank. When your range gets down near 100 miles, for either gas and/or watts, you substantially narrow where you are going to have to fill up. You also go into "the taper" of smaller batteries sooner. 115KW to 350KW is fast, relative to 1.5KW outlets or your typical 10KW wall charger, but greater than 100KW isn't useful if you need to get anywhere near full and your battery is what starts limiting you. A bigger battery keeps you out of the taper, for longer. It's like when gas slows down, for those last 50 cents, when pre-paid. Sitting at a charger, delivering 20KW is not too much fun (1-2 miles/minute).
07-29-2018, 11:15 PM
#87
Race Director
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
I think people peg 300 miles as sort of the Maginot Line because that's what most ICE cars will get on a full tank (give or take a few miles).
However, I think you're right and as others have mentioned it really is less about total range, but the time it takes for the car to be charged to full capacity. I would much rather have an EV that only has a 100 mile range if it that 100 mile range could be reached after just 2 minutes of charging, versus an EV that had 300 mile range but takes 20 minutes to reach that full capacity.
However, I think you're right and as others have mentioned it really is less about total range, but the time it takes for the car to be charged to full capacity. I would much rather have an EV that only has a 100 mile range if it that 100 mile range could be reached after just 2 minutes of charging, versus an EV that had 300 mile range but takes 20 minutes to reach that full capacity.
07-30-2018, 06:14 AM
#88
And like the maginot line you can just drive round it with a couple of Jerry cans in the boot
https://rennlist.com/forums/taycan-a...l#post15176747
This is a great thread put together by davo4porsche - I found it interesting and real world informative
https://rennlist.com/forums/taycan-a...l#post15176747
This is a great thread put together by davo4porsche - I found it interesting and real world informative
07-30-2018, 07:30 PM
#89
Like it or not Tesla has set a new bar:
Model 3 Performance - 0-60 3.5s + 155mph + 310 mi range + established charging network = $64k.
It may be ugly as a mud fence and have an ipad for a dashboard but sheeshus it checks all the boxes even without the tax credit!
Model 3 Performance - 0-60 3.5s + 155mph + 310 mi range + established charging network = $64k.
It may be ugly as a mud fence and have an ipad for a dashboard but sheeshus it checks all the boxes even without the tax credit!
07-30-2018, 08:18 PM
#90
Should not underestimate what Tesla can do. Don't forget this is the company that has showed the outrageously spec'd Roadster, not a prop but a real demo car, recently. It is learning fast and improving things by leaps and bounds. Dan Neil of WSJ who is one of the most respected auto critics said in the interview after he drove the Model 3 performance, "it will definitely outrun your average Porsche on your average road course for a lap or maybe a couple more". He wasn't even saying it could match your Porsche performance but will definitely outran it. We'll see.
https://cheddar.com/videos/behind-th...rmance-vehicle
https://cheddar.com/videos/behind-th...rmance-vehicle