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With EVs if you want more torque and hence power you have to add more weight - bigger motors (because of more turns, more area, larger magnets) - the corollary of this is you need more batteries and more cooling (due to draw down rates) - the dog eats its tail.
Agree with this, especially regarding range/endurance. Intertia and energy density become a losing battle.
Originally Posted by groundhog
To the gentleman that asked about track time - not that its relevant to physics/engineering calculations.
Many people get hung up on paper. Saying a low, and between the axles, skateboard is something we're "stuck with" made me wonder about your experience. Glad you have fun.
Originally Posted by groundhog
However non of this addresses the OPs points e.g. EVs are largely the same (like for like) a position I completely agree with,
I don't. You can say "the same" looking at engineering simplicity relative to a reciprocating engine, or how flatter torque and bigger RPM bands elminate transmission bits, but those similarities should *elevate* a level playing field. Maybe that comes at economic consequence to a maker, if everybody does it and manufacturers therefore can't achieve price, but it sounds silly to a "form follows function" mind set if better should be cheaper. Besides, the cars setting 'records at the Ring, Pikes Peak and Goodwood sprints aren't doing it with Model 3 parts, or $80k. There are more options for aerodynamics. Dealing with battery limits will still force consequential considerations for dual street/track performance (power vs. energy density). Weight saving bits, cooling systems and brakes become more important, more $$$.
If I'm getting ready for track, or getting ready to sell cars, I don't see where room to price higher-end electric vehicles hits a cap.
Originally Posted by daveo4porsche
and $85k Taycan with Porsche quality will compare very very well to a fully optioned Model 3 and probably be preferable to the Model S
Weight a minute. At least if you don't opt for Tesla's $5k "performance" option, you can take your $$ someplace else https://tinyurl.com/yccpoqfy . When Taycan's curb weight is released, we'll have a better idea on brass tax. I'm holding on to it being 600-1000 pounds heavier, and therefore comparable to Model S. Sad, Porsche is going to touchscreens, too.
on the performance front Porsche is all in on 3.5 seconds or less for 0-60 and we know they are targeting stamina vs. Tesla - the Performance Tesla Model 3 fully tricked out is $85,000 before taxes and will _NOT_ have a $7,500 fed tax credit…
so I'll stand by my assertion that an $85,000 porsche vs.a performance Model 3 ($75,000) - I'll take the Porsche any day of the week! and get the Fed. tax credit.
I have no problem with touch screens - they offer a lot more flexibility and if well done are very usable.
Not disputing your point that Tesla makes an average car, (but with ridiculous acceleration). So no need to belabor/repeat this point as I agree with you on this.
The disagreement is concerning the base model 3 vs other entry level EVs, as you paint all of Tesla with the same brush.
Average fit and finish, handling is completely unacceptable in a $80-120000 car such as the model S/X.
However, standards are different for entry level/cheap cars, which is my entire point. This is why the model 3 is the clear winner over the Bolt or Leaf, as fit finish of model 3 is much better than those cars, a far more attractive exterior, better acceleration, range, curb appeal, charging network, etc.
You keep throwing the Pontiac Aztek of EVs, the Nissan Leaf, into the discussion to make your point. The Leaf is a joke of a car and shouldn't be in the conversation. As far as the Model 3 goes, I don't how you could begin to say the Model 3 has a better fit and finish than ANYTHING sold today, as the body panel fit on all 4-5 cars I looked at was ridiculously bad. One was so bad it looked like one of the rear doors wasn't fully closed. All the hoods were off and there were defects on some of the trim. I honestly could not believe that someone would even accept delivery of a car in the shape these cars were in, but then I remembered who buys Teslas. If a dealer would have tried to hand me the keys to one of those cars after taking $50k+ from me, I would have demanded my money back.
And, seriously, you think that schnozz looks good? And those clown car wheel covers?
What you keep avoiding is the fact that there is a very real price point difference between the Bolt and the Model 3, if they are similarly equipped. A well equipped Bolt is $38,545, while the same options on a Model 3 is $55,000. And that's before the incentives, which Tesla will be losing before a new Model 3 buyer will get their car. Those are not comparable cars. One is a priced like an (expensive) econo-hatch and the other like a luxury mid sized sedan. Both overpriced IMO, but not comparable at all. When/if Tesla ever produces a stripper 3 that prices out at $35,000 they'll start to be worth comparing..
on the performance front Porsche is all in on 3.5 seconds or less for 0-60 and we know they are targeting stamina vs. Tesla - the Performance Tesla Model 3 fully tricked out is $85,000 before taxes and will _NOT_ have a $7,500 fed tax credit…
so I'll stand by my assertion that an $85,000 porsche vs.a performance Model 3 ($75,000) - I'll take the Porsche any day of the week! and get the Fed. tax credit.
Yeah but an $85,000 Taycan is going to be just as rare as the mythical $35,000 Model 3.
recent Model 3 fit and finish is widely acknowledged to match to exceed most cars - although early models (the first 20,000 or so) were horrible - when reviewing the model 3 we have to adjust our expectations to the early models vs. what they re actually producing today.
Yeah but an $85,000 Taycan is going to be just as rare as the mythical $35,000 Model 3.
Trenchant point by Arch here.
And brings up the fact that the EV market is still a luxury market - both Tesla and Porsche are going to squeeze as much profit as they can with highly optioned configs.
An obvious strategy is to make sure that Porsche essentially captures all of the EV tax credits for itself as long as they last by making it nigh impossible to get a base model.
You keep throwing the Pontiac Aztek of EVs, the Nissan Leaf, into the discussion to make your point. The Leaf is a joke of a car and shouldn't be in the conversation. As far as the Model 3 goes, I don't how you could begin to say the Model 3 has a better fit and finish than ANYTHING sold today, as the body panel fit on all 4-5 cars I looked at was ridiculously bad. One was so bad it looked like one of the rear doors wasn't fully closed. All the hoods were off and there were defects on some of the trim. I honestly could not believe that someone would even accept delivery of a car in the shape these cars were in, but then I remembered who buys Teslas. If a dealer would have tried to hand me the keys to one of those cars after taking $50k+ from me, I would have demanded my money back.
And, seriously, you think that schnozz looks good? And those clown car wheel covers?
What you keep avoiding is the fact that there is a very real price point difference between the Bolt and the Model 3, if they are similarly equipped. A well equipped Bolt is $38,545, while the same options on a Model 3 is $55,000. And that's before the incentives, which Tesla will be losing before a new Model 3 buyer will get their car. Those are not comparable cars. One is a priced like an (expensive) econo-hatch and the other like a luxury mid sized sedan. Both overpriced IMO, but not comparable at all. When/if Tesla ever produces a stripper 3 that prices out at $35,000 they'll start to be worth comparing..
you much be such a chore to speak with in person. I can see why you spend so much time online.
Can’t ever admit when wrong. There is no point in a healthy debate with an insecure person who just keeps repeating his position once it’s clearly been defeated.
The new Jaguar I-Pace fully optioned is about $85K and is by all reports a hell of a nice car to drive with a decent range. Porsche had best not price the Taycan too extremely as there are other nice options coming on-line.
Yeah but an $85,000 Taycan is going to be just as rare as the mythical $35,000 Model 3.
That is correct sir.....I don't think we will see that unicorn for some time which sounds like a single motor set up arriving at a later date... I would expect to pay MORE for a Porsche then a Tesla, not the same or less. The $7500 Federal rebate will help close the cost gap if Tesla looses theirs shortly. Near production model at Goodwood Festival of Speed this past weekend which I posted in the other thread:
That is correct sir.....I don't think we will see that unicorn for some time which sounds like a single motor set up arriving at a later date... I would expect to pay MORE for a Porsche then a Tesla, not the same or less. The $7500 Federal rebate will help close the cost gap if Tesla looses theirs shortly. Near production model at Goodwood Festival of Speed this past weekend which I posted in the other thread:
well then im guessing a lot of people including myself are going to be disappointed. I was expecting to be able to get a Taycan for near that price or slightly over depending on how I spec it out. It’s been said that the Taycan will have two motor AWD and start around ~85k in multiple press releases/interviews. Personally, if that’s not the case I’d go for a panamera ehybrid or ehybrid Turbo and get the best of both worlds if I wanted to spend 100k plus. Are you a dealer? what do you hear?
Tesla is in trouble. No more tax credit, the Model 3 sucks (drove it in LA, very cheap interior) and as illustrated above, WAY TOO EXPENSIVE AND no bank will lease $ on it. You have to buy it and with minimal down and 72 months at 5% your payments are around $1,000 per month. Forget it!
you much be such a chore to speak with in person. I can see why you spend so much time online.
Can’t ever admit when wrong. There is no point in a healthy debate with an insecure person who just keeps repeating his position once it’s clearly been defeated.
And I’m guessing you’re a Tesla fanboy who paid way too much for a boring appliance of a car who feels the need to justify his bad decision.
That is correct sir.....I don't think we will see that unicorn for some time which sounds like a single motor set up arriving at a later date... I would expect to pay MORE for a Porsche then a Tesla, not the same or less. The $7500 Federal rebate will help close the cost gap if Tesla looses theirs shortly. Near production model at Goodwood Festival of Speed this past weekend which I posted in the other thread:
Why would you expect to pay more for a Taycan - Tesla have built and delivered viable infrastructure and have a production track record with respect to EVs - Porsche have neither.
I'm not going to pay a significant premium for a Porsche EV - and with respect to EVs, Porsche has no credentials, no track record, no infrastructure - therefore no premium.
With EVs the playing field is level - Porsche and Porsche dealers need to start readjusting their collective glasses very, very quickly. Porsche has no advantage in electric motors, it has no advantage in battery technology, in has no advantage in electronics and its fit and finish is on par with Lexus.
Why would you expect to pay more for a Taycan - Tesla have built and delivered viable infrastructure and have a production track record with respect to EVs - Porsche have neither. I'm not going to pay a significant premium for a Porsche EV - no credentials, no track record, no infrastructure - no premium.
With EVs the playing field is level - Porsche and Porsche dealers need to start readjusting your collective glasses very, very quickly.
As to price, expect it to be about 15% cheaper than a similarly equipped Panamera.
And, let's not kid ourselves, the uptake on the Taycan is going very well. With deliveries more than a year out (e.g. 4Q19), many (not all) dealers have hundreds of customers putting down deposits, some with more.
07-17-2018, 02:34 PM
