Seneca035

seems to be a common theme here among the EV + Porsche enthusiasts (EV + GT3)!

Seneca035

I went from an S 90D to a M3 RWD - live in the city, much easier to park, and more fun to bomb around the streets in vs the heavier S. I know several other S customers trading down for a 3... the S was the only sedan available at the time so they bought it. Now that the 3 is here, Tesla needs to launch an all-new S to keep demand up + compete with the upcoming Taycan. I'd argue that Tesla can **** in Porsche's cereal on the production launch of the Taycan with an all-new S design. They hired a guy from Volvo in late 2016 to up the quality of the interiors - https://jalopnik.com/tesla-hired-vol...fix-1790315839

Top trade for the Model S was the BMW 5-Series, and now for the Model 3 it's the BMW 3-Series. Average loan for a new vehicle in 2018 is $30k+ - https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300704598.html

I don't think a lot of people realize that a loaded version of the 3 (340i xDrive) is $60k+. A comparable Model 3 build is $64,700 w/ destination + no gas and incentives (one could argue the BMW has factory incentives) so let's call it a dead heat.

RonF

This was just posted on the Tesla forum by a Porsche club instructor who owns a Tesla Model 3 performance. He got 5th overall time in a field of GT4's, GT3's and other Porsche models with his Tesla in a Porsche club autocross event. Even though not many people are tracking their Tesla yet the notion that Tesla is not a trackable car is way exaggerated. BMW and Porsche, especially BMW. better wake up fast.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...sla-vs-porsche

Archimedes

RonF

I wonder what those Porsche were doing there. Can they find a better thing to do? Point of his report was how nicely the Tesla did against GT4's and GT3RS's when pushed to the limit.

There were already a few who took theirs to tracks and I can guarantee you more will come. Gone will be ICE's last defense when that starts to happen. Nothing to laugh about if my livelihood depends on that. BMW and Porsche better wake up fast. Denial won't get you anywhere.

daveo4porsche

we are all very very fortunate - it's a real luxury to be able to indulge our wants and needs like this…I'm thankful every day for how fortunate I am.

unclewill

Do you think a lot of people cross shop gas and electric cars? I never considered that because once I drank the EV kool aid, I pretty much relegated ICE cars to the "interesting antiques" portion of my brain, and I won't ever buy a new one again. But, it's true that if someone is spending $60k on a four door sedan, they will be looking at the 3-series, C-class, maybe the Lincoln, Caddy, Genesis, etc. as well as the Model 3. Here's a quick comparison in the press:
https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/08/02/t...per-bloomberg/
A new Model S is due but the new Model Y compact SUV will probably make a bigger splash because that market segment is still growing.

RonF

Here you go. Stock Model S P100D got a very respectable 1:43:06 at Laguna Seca by a pro driver. Probably even a record for a car this big. Like I said these things will get out sooner or later. The last ICE defense will be soon gone.

daveo4porsche

kudos for the lap time with a 5,xxx lbs 4 door sedan…

but I find two statements at odds with one another:

I'm guessing what he means is no physical setup changes (tires, brakes, or suspension) but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some software changes…otherwise why work with Tesla Engineering?

I'm still happy about the lap time - that's pretty quick, and really quite an accomplishment given the car's weight…but I doubt it's a car a normal user could take delivery of - now an OTA update might do the trick.

and I also I"ll beat the drum - I doubt that car could do that lap time 3 or 4 times back to back…at least 3 problems with that car doing back to back laps

1. brakes aren't up the task - I've driven laguna in my P85d - awesome brake fade to the point of being really really really scary
2. tires aren't up the task - car is just too heavy - any car with that weight will have problems with tires back to back laps
3. power limits imposed due to battery thermals…

the Model S is a one shot pony without some substantial changes - no way it's good to go for a 25-30 minute HPDE session at full tilt - that's a just a fact.

now the Model 3 is a refreshed design (we're coming up on the Model S being almost 8 years old if you think lead times for manufacturing) - and we know the Model 3 has better battery thermals and with track mode they will expand that envelope - I consider the Model S a 1.75 lap car, 2 laps at the most full tilt - the Model 3 seems to be more of a 3-5 lap car, and track mode should make that more like 6-8 laps…so we're getting closer for a HPDE type track day - I typically get 8 back to back laps in a 20 min session with my GT3 @ Laguna…so the Model 3 should not be too far off for a 20-25 session.

daveo4porsche

one thing about the Model 3 lap record v.s other production cars

it can make sound at Laguna on a 90 and 92 DB day with no modifications...

there a quite a number of cars on the Laguna lap time list that can't make sound on a 90 or 92 DB day @ laguna - which means either exhaust modifications or lifting between turns 5 & 6…and if you're lifting between 5&6 you're not doing your best lap time…

the Model 3 can pass sound all day long with no lift between 5 & 6

RonF

If I read it right he was there to test the car with development engineers but took the opportunity to make a timed lap or two.

I also agree with rest of your points. It's not quite there for tracking yet but EV and battery technologies are only at the infant stage now. Things will continue to get better whereas there is little room for improvement for ICE technology at this stage of the game.

Needsdecaf

I have stayed away from glancing at this thread for some time, it seems the debate has become very lively! Quite fun!

EV's certainly tend to polarize automotive enthusiasts, and Tesla even more so. So is the way of disruptive companies with disruptive executives. And make no mistake, Tesla has truly disrupted the industry. I do not believe for a second that we would be where we are today without the impact that Tesla has had.

But where we are today is the start of an onslaught of EV's from nearly every mass manufacturer. Audi is launching the E-Tron and already taking deposits. Porsche is taking deposits on the Taycan (what an unfortunate name!). Jaguar has the iPace. Merc just launched the EQC, etc. The all electric X3 is coming. The Leaf is newly redesigned. Etc. I am not making any predictions, but will say that Tesla will face competition like it's never before and it should be very interesting to see how it plays out. They certainly have some advantages; the supercharger network, OTA updates, the "cool" factor, and others. However they've been playing solo in a market for some time now and that's going away.

I've driven a few Model S's, one for 2 days, as well as a few i3's and I am a fan of EV's. 20 months ago I got a GTI for daily commuting and I thought long and hard about an i3...but the range didn't work for me. It would for most days, but at least a few days a week I would have had to switch cars with the wife as the range was too short. I now have a new job with a much longer commute and I'm glad I don't have the i3 as it wouldn't make it to and from work and there is no charging at work. But to be honest, I can't wait until the lease in my GTI is up to get an EV for this commute. Especially if it's one with an autopilot type system. It will make my commute a LOT less stressful. The smoothness and directness of controlling the speed in traffic really does make a difference in my mind. As does the lack of NVH.

I've sat in the new Model 3 (I can't say M3, that's a BMW sorry) and I was underwhelmed. Personal preference but I don't care for the design and I don't like having to depend so much on the screen for basic functions. I know that such things get easier with time however as someone who spends a lot of time in the car, there is something to be said for a certain level of physical controls. I have not driven one but expect it to be similar to the S, just a bit slower. Which is to say perfect for everyday commuting. Houston has some seriously boring roads and the Model S handles them just fine. I would expect the Model 3 to do so as well.

But I'm not an "early adopter" and so far I haven't been able to pull the trigger with Tesla. The Model S didn't fit me (I'm 6'2" and lacked headroom) and for the near $100k price tag, I felt the interior was underwhelming. I do not care for the Model 3's design, interior or exterior. The Model X is too big and too expensive for me. Right now I'd say my preference would be an E-Tron. But we'll see when it's released and what pricing looks like.

One thing's for sure, if you're an EV fan, things are about to become very exciting.

unclewill

The etron and the Taycan are required by law to go on sale in California by the end of 2019 but likely in limited numbers. Jaguar is supposed to be in the US by the end of 2018 in limited numbers. The MB EQC is two years out, X3 is unknown. The wave is coming, but it will be 3-5 years before you walk into multiple dealerships to compare EVs that are actually on the lot for sale.
Teslas have a giant iPad on the dash because EVs do not require gauges and dials to monitor numerous mechanical systems. Clean sheet design means rethinking convention and it takes time for end users to adapt. Personally, I am fascinated by what Tesla engineers have done to reinvent the car - revolution over evolution. I can't wait to see what OEMs can bring to the table when they get serious about EVs.

daveo4porsche

I'm very excited to have choices other than Tesla - I'm unfortunately in the position of losing my car-pool sticker for my Model S at the end of 2018 - and I'm looking for another EV...

there are 3 choices for a pure-EV that I can buy today

1. Tesla
2. Bolt
3. Leaf

everything else is vaporware {sigh}

I wouldn't be getting rid of my Model S - I'm very happy with it as a car - but it will no longer be a car-pool enabled car - and the car pool lane saves me 2-3 hours/week on my commute....

the unfortunate truth is if you want an EV in the next 6 months Tesla is still the only game in town IMHO - yes the others are coming, but still not today.

Archimedes

You post that like its an amazing time. It's nothing that special and certainly not a Laguna record for big cars. It's an EV record because, well, you know why.

Laguna is a torque track where an EV should shine. The fact that it turns in a decent time isn't surprising, but go look at the cars in that range at Laguna. Not exactly super sports cars. It's only seven seconds behind that legendary sports sedan, the Cadillac ATS-V...

And how many laps did it turn before overheating? We won't know because the whole thing was done by Tesla...

Eventually, EVs will dominate on the track, but that day is still a ways off and all the 'we broke the EV lap record' Twitter posts won't change that.