EV race cars are coming…
07-04-2018, 09:22 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
here's another one for @bccars not to care about…
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...e-attack-race/
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...e-attack-race/
07-05-2018, 02:43 PM
#17
I've been trying to get into Formula E, but the racing just isn't very good yet. The tracks are way too tight and boring, and the cars seem to handle like RC cars. I'm hoping the new car improves things, but the series really needs to get off all these super tight road courses so we can see some real racing.
07-08-2018, 05:49 AM
#18
I'm sure they are - so far its like watching paint dry and Pikes Hill is not a metaphor for motorsport. I'm sure a different generation will warm to it.
This is Walter Rohrls take and I happen to agree with him.
The 1980 and ’82 WRC champion blasted current moves towards electric cars and electrification as a “disaster” in an interview with Germany’s MotorsportMagazin.com.
Röhrl has been a Porsche ambassador and a key member of its development team for nearly two decades, but told the interviewer he specifically wanted no part of developing the Mission E or any other electric Porsche because he hated them.
“I don’t need that,” he told the interviewer, before claiming electric cars would be an environmental disaster.
The interview set off alarm bells at Porsche, which has yet to respond to requests for comment.
Insiders insist the interview, and any repercussions from it, are still being discussed amongst the Porsche family and the supervisory board and they have yet to decide how to treat Röhrl, who they have long treated as family.
Yet the Volkswagen Group recently swapped out ex-Porsche man Matthias Mueller as Management Board Chairman and CEO because they felt he wasn’t pushing electrification fast or hard enough, and Porsche is said to be under pressure from his replacement, Herbert Diess, about dealing with Röhrl.
Verbatim, the interview (in German), went like this, after Röhrl was asked if he’d ever watched a Formula E race:
Walter Röhrl: The TV was on, but I wasn’t really watching, and I heard this sound. It sounded like a golf cart, you know, on a golf course, but then I realised ‘Hey, that’s Formula E’. Great, exactly what I need!
Of course I switched the TV off right away. That’s all I have to say about Formula E. I’m just not interested.
Even if Porsche were to win, I couldn’t be bothered.
Question: Why not?
WR: Well if you ask me, the very idea of making a racing car just for racing through cities is ludicrous.
What they should do is, they should drive on a racing circuit and make some great sound. That would tell me that I’m at racetrack and not at some kind of event for the blind [he meant ‘deaf’].
Q: I suppose Porsche’s Mission E is not your cup of tea either, is it?
WR: No, I don’t need that. I’m convinced that by the time that car hits the ground I’ll have an arrangement whereby I’ll either be retired or I’ll have nothing to do with that.
Q: So you’ll actually have a contract to that effect?
WR: Well, you know, I don’t want to get into trouble. You’ll never hear me say that electric cars are great.
What I say is the future of electric motoring will be in the cities.
If you ask me, driving a car is about getting in and going on an 800km trip, and electric cars can never be a solution to that.
Also, they’re a disaster in environmental terms.
Q: You mean in terms of their overall eco-balance?
WR: Exactly. And by the way, there’ll never be enough raw materials.
I’m shocked at what all those politicians are saying. They say that electric cars are a winner, but they haven’t got a clue what they’re talking about.
But now everyone is running in that direction, ignoring the development of fuel cells, the development of ICEs, the development of synthetic fuels, which would be the future, if you ask me.
But like I said, those blind politicians are telling us: ‘This is the way forward’ and everyone is going that way — it’s a disaster.
Note: Porsche is under pressure to fire ambassador and former world rally champion Walter Röhrl after he slammed electric cars during a
.
This is Walter Rohrls take and I happen to agree with him.
The 1980 and ’82 WRC champion blasted current moves towards electric cars and electrification as a “disaster” in an interview with Germany’s MotorsportMagazin.com.
Röhrl has been a Porsche ambassador and a key member of its development team for nearly two decades, but told the interviewer he specifically wanted no part of developing the Mission E or any other electric Porsche because he hated them.
“I don’t need that,” he told the interviewer, before claiming electric cars would be an environmental disaster.
The interview set off alarm bells at Porsche, which has yet to respond to requests for comment.
Insiders insist the interview, and any repercussions from it, are still being discussed amongst the Porsche family and the supervisory board and they have yet to decide how to treat Röhrl, who they have long treated as family.
Yet the Volkswagen Group recently swapped out ex-Porsche man Matthias Mueller as Management Board Chairman and CEO because they felt he wasn’t pushing electrification fast or hard enough, and Porsche is said to be under pressure from his replacement, Herbert Diess, about dealing with Röhrl.
Verbatim, the interview (in German), went like this, after Röhrl was asked if he’d ever watched a Formula E race:
Walter Röhrl: The TV was on, but I wasn’t really watching, and I heard this sound. It sounded like a golf cart, you know, on a golf course, but then I realised ‘Hey, that’s Formula E’. Great, exactly what I need!
Of course I switched the TV off right away. That’s all I have to say about Formula E. I’m just not interested.
Even if Porsche were to win, I couldn’t be bothered.
Question: Why not?
WR: Well if you ask me, the very idea of making a racing car just for racing through cities is ludicrous.
What they should do is, they should drive on a racing circuit and make some great sound. That would tell me that I’m at racetrack and not at some kind of event for the blind [he meant ‘deaf’].
Q: I suppose Porsche’s Mission E is not your cup of tea either, is it?
WR: No, I don’t need that. I’m convinced that by the time that car hits the ground I’ll have an arrangement whereby I’ll either be retired or I’ll have nothing to do with that.
Q: So you’ll actually have a contract to that effect?
WR: Well, you know, I don’t want to get into trouble. You’ll never hear me say that electric cars are great.
What I say is the future of electric motoring will be in the cities.
If you ask me, driving a car is about getting in and going on an 800km trip, and electric cars can never be a solution to that.
Also, they’re a disaster in environmental terms.
Q: You mean in terms of their overall eco-balance?
WR: Exactly. And by the way, there’ll never be enough raw materials.
I’m shocked at what all those politicians are saying. They say that electric cars are a winner, but they haven’t got a clue what they’re talking about.
But now everyone is running in that direction, ignoring the development of fuel cells, the development of ICEs, the development of synthetic fuels, which would be the future, if you ask me.
But like I said, those blind politicians are telling us: ‘This is the way forward’ and everyone is going that way — it’s a disaster.
Note: Porsche is under pressure to fire ambassador and former world rally champion Walter Röhrl after he slammed electric cars during a
Last edited by groundhog; 07-08-2018 at 07:07 AM.
07-08-2018, 07:52 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
unfounded opinions from a legend of racing..
it's nice you agree with factually incorrect assertions, and the fact that Walter is making them doesn't make them correct - it just means EV's have a long ways to go - I do 800 km trips in my EV's all the time and the lack of resources cuts both ways - more FUD - too bad it's coming from such a legendary driver.
it's nice you agree with factually incorrect assertions, and the fact that Walter is making them doesn't make them correct - it just means EV's have a long ways to go - I do 800 km trips in my EV's all the time and the lack of resources cuts both ways - more FUD - too bad it's coming from such a legendary driver.
07-08-2018, 08:17 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Walter Röhrl: The TV was on, but I wasn’t really watching, and I heard this sound. It sounded like a golf cart, you know, on a golf course, but then I realised ‘Hey, that’s Formula E’. Great, exactly what I need!
Of course I switched the TV off right away. That’s all I have to say about Formula E. I’m just not interested.
Even if Porsche were to win, I couldn’t be bothered.
Of course I switched the TV off right away. That’s all I have to say about Formula E. I’m just not interested.
Even if Porsche were to win, I couldn’t be bothered.
Question: Why not?
WR: Well if you ask me, the very idea of making a racing car just for racing through cities is ludicrous.
What they should do is, they should drive on a racing circuit and make some great sound. That would tell me that I’m at racetrack and not at some kind of event for the blind [he meant ‘deaf’].
WR: Well if you ask me, the very idea of making a racing car just for racing through cities is ludicrous.
What they should do is, they should drive on a racing circuit and make some great sound. That would tell me that I’m at racetrack and not at some kind of event for the blind [he meant ‘deaf’].
so he's going to miss the sound - that makes him a great and thoughtful critic of the future
Q: I suppose Porsche’s Mission E is not your cup of tea either, is it?
WR: No, I don’t need that. I’m convinced that by the time that car hits the ground I’ll have an arrangement whereby I’ll either be retired or I’ll have nothing to do with that.
WR: No, I don’t need that. I’m convinced that by the time that car hits the ground I’ll have an arrangement whereby I’ll either be retired or I’ll have nothing to do with that.
Q: So you’ll actually have a contract to that effect?
WR: Well, you know, I don’t want to get into trouble. You’ll never hear me say that electric cars are great.
What I say is the future of electric motoring will be in the cities.
If you ask me, driving a car is about getting in and going on an 800km trip, and electric cars can never be a solution to that.
Also, they’re a disaster in environmental terms.
WR: Well, you know, I don’t want to get into trouble. You’ll never hear me say that electric cars are great.
What I say is the future of electric motoring will be in the cities.
If you ask me, driving a car is about getting in and going on an 800km trip, and electric cars can never be a solution to that.
Also, they’re a disaster in environmental terms.
and a "disaster" in environmental terms - in what way - vs. the oil industry? really really uninformed. he, ground hog and some other anti-EV crowd should hang out together and keep quoting unfounded opinion.
Q: You mean in terms of their overall eco-balance?
WR: Exactly. And by the way, there’ll never be enough raw materials.
WR: Exactly. And by the way, there’ll never be enough raw materials.
and the _ONLY_ component of an EV that isn't exactly the same as a normal car is the battery - so he's referring to Lithium - which
a: we are finding more sources for (just like looking for more oil)
b: is the _NOT_ the only element with which to make a battery - future batteries are not likely to be be lithium based
so is Walter saying there will never be enough resources to make cars? Because other than the battery an EV car shares nearly all the resource requirements of an existing car. This argument is unqualified crap and simply makes no sense other than grasping at straws to defend your position that you "don't like EV's" - it's a throw away line/argument that is easily dismissed, but resonates with the crowd that has this predisposition, it bears _NO_ inspection and to date isn't really rooted in any facts
just because he's a great race car driver doesn't make anything he says with regards to this topic credible
He said: he doesn't like EV' - great factually correct, he doesn't like them - opinions are free and open
He said: he'll miss the noise of race cars - there are a large number of people that will agree and disagree with him - opinion, free and open - he's entitled to it
He said: he'lll never be associated with EV's and won't ever like them - true - and he accelerated this outcome with this interview
He said: you can't drive 800 km with an EV - he's factually wrong - just 100% factually wrong - no excuse.
He said: they are an environmental distaster, with no qualifications as to why or how - generally this argument has been debunked and documented to as Oil Industry misinformation - although with out details we don't know why Walter feels this way - but the common arguments are easily debunked and refuted with facts and evidence, holding this opinion is common, but generally always wrong.
He said: there will never be enough resources - again most likely wrong, and all research and evidence is to the contrary, but honestly there will never be enough resources for any car, and he's not acknowledging the future of EV's that use different resources than today's tech...and other than the battery what resources does an EV use that isn't 100% in common with ICE cars - is Walter saying there isn't enough resources for any cars in the future? Most of an EV has exactly the same resource requirements as an existing car, and by the way exactly hte same disposals problems - and some that are unique to ICE cars…this argument is simply a throw away line for those that are predisposed to agree with the opinion that EV's are bad - take the battery out of hte equation and now what part of any EV is an environmental disaster, and there isn't enough resources? And the batteries are not an environmental disaster, and please don't quote lithium mining as a problem unless you're going to state the Oil Industry has a spotless record of environmental stewardship and is low impact - it doesn't, and it's not. At most EV's are equal - but really they are still far better.
wow, simply wow - there is virtually nothing of any substance other than he clearly hates EV's - but really really doesn't understand them or actually seem to know anything about them - he has cemented his place in history - emphasis on history, because he clearly doesn't see or understand the future, and the best he can do is trot out unfounded, factually incorrect assertions that do not bear any investigation.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 07-08-2018 at 08:37 PM.
07-08-2018, 11:08 PM
#21
I can write a rebuttal of the whole EV mantra starting from power generation through transmission and distribution networks, through to the cost of infrastructure and all the way through the battery supply chain. Also as it happens I own a company that producers stabilisers for a range of battery types. There is a significant supply problem that relates to the source and amount of stabiliser elements - this is a fact.
EVs are a lifestyle choice in the US, in Europe they are a need driven by energy security not emissions (despite all the rhetoric). For the third world they are a total disaster.
Having competed in a road rally that hosted 4 EVs - I can tell you this, it was painful - not only were they slow, they had to have a truck mounted diesel generator following them around. This caused problems at a number of stages - in rallying you have to get to starting points via liaison stages at certain allotted times - if you don't do this you get penalised. They were in the way - end of.
Formula E is simply dreadful to watch - perhaps a different generation will feel differently.
EVs are a lifestyle choice in the US, in Europe they are a need driven by energy security not emissions (despite all the rhetoric). For the third world they are a total disaster.
Having competed in a road rally that hosted 4 EVs - I can tell you this, it was painful - not only were they slow, they had to have a truck mounted diesel generator following them around. This caused problems at a number of stages - in rallying you have to get to starting points via liaison stages at certain allotted times - if you don't do this you get penalised. They were in the way - end of.
Formula E is simply dreadful to watch - perhaps a different generation will feel differently.
07-09-2018, 12:04 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I look forward to the rebuttal
ev based rally cars seem pointless - let’s focus them as personal transportation alternatives - but I would imagine a lot of the problems mirror early Ice cars..
but power generation and distribution interest me as well as infrastructure - supply problems are rarely static and problems tend to get fixed - it’s not a reason to abandon the approach - but yes it will have to evolve.
all of these arguments come down to “it’s not ideal right now so we should do none of it!” - that approach rarely leads to progress
ev based rally cars seem pointless - let’s focus them as personal transportation alternatives - but I would imagine a lot of the problems mirror early Ice cars..
but power generation and distribution interest me as well as infrastructure - supply problems are rarely static and problems tend to get fixed - it’s not a reason to abandon the approach - but yes it will have to evolve.
all of these arguments come down to “it’s not ideal right now so we should do none of it!” - that approach rarely leads to progress
07-09-2018, 08:46 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
In 5 to 10 years nobody will be talking about driving EV anymore. Something alse will have popped up by then !
07-31-2018, 03:24 PM
#24
You do realize that EV race cars are already here, right?
http://www.fiaformulae.com/
Some big names in the series, driver and constructor.
Personally, I wish they would augment the sound somehow. That high pitched whine is awful. Doesn't have to sound like ICE...maybe just a woosh? Dunno. New cars coming next year with batteries that last whole race, let's see what they've got.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/
Some big names in the series, driver and constructor.
Personally, I wish they would augment the sound somehow. That high pitched whine is awful. Doesn't have to sound like ICE...maybe just a woosh? Dunno. New cars coming next year with batteries that last whole race, let's see what they've got.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16...p100d-approved
07-31-2018, 07:00 PM
#25
Here is another one fully sanctioned by FIA. It runs exclusively with Tesla P100D for now but will add other cars later when they become available. BEV may not be ideal for race at this moment but neither were ICE cars in the early days. There is no fundamental reason why BEV can not improve its track longevity.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16...p100d-approved
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16...p100d-approved
08-24-2018, 05:23 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/08/24/...cord-ev-tesla/
you don't have to life between turn 5 & 6 to make sound -
well at least it can make sound laguna!
looks pretty ragged - but faster that most of my students in 911's
be interesting to see if it could do a 25 min DE session - and Laguna is devoid of any EV charging infrastructure - not sure how you fill it back up to run all day...I have lots of questions - but it's still progress - as more and more manufacturers get involved this EV stuff is going to start progressing pretty quickly - problems will get solved…
you don't have to life between turn 5 & 6 to make sound -
well at least it can make sound laguna!
looks pretty ragged - but faster that most of my students in 911's
be interesting to see if it could do a 25 min DE session - and Laguna is devoid of any EV charging infrastructure - not sure how you fill it back up to run all day...I have lots of questions - but it's still progress - as more and more manufacturers get involved this EV stuff is going to start progressing pretty quickly - problems will get solved…
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-24-2018 at 05:44 PM.
08-24-2018, 06:19 PM
#27
One memorable trip comes to mind from my time in Germany. I went to visit a friend living in Frankfurt early one Saturday morning. I gassed my E46 M3 up leaving my house then took the unrestricted autobahn down. 152 miles door to door and I did it in 58 minutes. What limited my time wasn't the speed of the car, it was range. I came in on fumes, 4 miles remaining, and had to back off over the last 20 miles to actually make the distance.
The rate at which you're able to use power and fuel on the autobahn is staggering. A friend complained that he traded his Carrera for a Cayenne Turbo S and it slowed him down- the car was faster but the drop in range was enough that his point to point speed was compromised by stopping for more gas. Consider WR's statement in this light: covering 800km at full autobahn speeds (as I'm sure he would, traffic and route allowing) would likely mean at least three stops for recharging of a fast EV with a "nominal" 500 km range at normal speeds. At Supercharger charge rates that adds ~3 hours to a 3 hour trip. Less at 800 volts, but the man still has a point for his use case. And he's correct that in his lifetime that's not going to change.
I'm a huge fan of Walter's. Great guy, he's far more open and honest than he probably should be, and 99% of the time that makes him an ideal brand ambassador. The man can also drive the crap out of anything with wheels, as I had the pleasure of learning once upon a time on a snow covered rally course in Sweden. Mid drift:
Unfortunately Walter is not an engineer, and his environmental knowledge is limited. I'm very familiar with Lithium mining, as my company is tangentially involved. There are certainly issues, but nothing compared to Oil and Gas (which is our main focus).
I agree with Walter on the sound aspect, etc on the other hand. Hillclimbs are great for EVs, but watching Formula E is like watching paint dry compared to the old V8 or V10 era F1.