manitou202

Outside of small volume, specialty engines, most of the engine components are still made by tier one suppliers. I worked for a Tier one supplier for 7 years. We designed, manufactured, and assembled pistons, camshafts, valve cover assemblies, oil pans, front cover assemblies (with multiple accessories attached), spark plugs, gaskets, and shaft seals. This was just our powertrain division. The big 3 relied on our design expertise to develop many of the powertrain components.

It would be interesting to see an analysis on how many people it takes (including all of the Tier 1 suppliers) to develop and launch a vehicle. My guess is Tesla is still on the high number of people, but I bet car manufacturers with similar volumes aren't that different (Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, etc). I didn't include Porsche because they get the benefit of platforming with much higher volume vehicles because they are part of VAG.

tinkerbill

I saw this a few weeks ago and thought it was quite good.

Lorenfb

Notwithstanding the instrument cluster (Tesla's MCU - with Nvidia processor/help), all the other functions you mentioned are simple design efforts, e.g. CCU, lights, and seat controls.
The module design for those functions aren't much different than what M/B & BMW have the capability to design and manufacture or sublet if it's cheaper. Like for M/B & BMW,
the functions of seat control & wipers, still require a processor chip in each of the final control modules, i.e. to control the seat motor and the wiper motor unit.

doshc

Just for some perspective for everyone:

@acoste is on at least three other car forums with a lot of energy invested in spreading Tesla FUD. On one of the forums he admits to working for the legacy auto industry which explains the sheer amount of effort, time and commitment it takes to actively participate in so many forums spreading a large amount of uneducated opinions about a car he has never owned.

@acoste has never owned either a Porsche nor a Tesla, let's all ask why he's so invested in attempting to have his opinions heard over those who have experience with both brands here. Not only does he not have any experience here, his opinions are very uneducated.

There are a number here with both Porsche and Tesla to let us all gain a good experienced perspective just like in one of the BMW forums there are more than half a dozen who own multiple BMWs as well as Tesla who share their experiences in threads there- yet @acoste who doesn't own the car nor have much experience with them will continuously spread misinformation and troll the forum members who own and have experience with Tesla along with other brands.

So keep all that in mind as we continue to read his drivel.

acoste

Yeah, I'm a BMW guy. Owner, not job related. But due to my job I hear a lot about several other car makers and I know the field well what I work in. Came here to the Porsche forum for the Panamera which hopefully I will buy one day. And at the same time went to Tesla forum for some information since I was interested about the Model 3. After my findings I'm not interested in the Tesla any more. And every time I share my critics people think I'm a built in agent. very funny actually. If I say something incorrect about Tesla, please correct it instead of accusing me with ??? . I learn a lot and newer alternate the truth. I have never owned or shorted TSLA. I already told this on the Tesla forum, if I had interest I would hide better, not using the same name, etc.

Tesla forum is the weirdest forum ever. Everyone is suspicious about the other. When an owner describes his issues, he has to prove first that he is a real owner with a real problem ... If an owner uploads his issue to Youtube, people call him crazy.

doshc

I have no professional interest in the car industry but I happen to be good friends with an executive of one of the companies under the Volkswagen Group. This weekend he told me "you won't hear us mention Tesla much, but everyone in the company is scared of Tesla".

doshc

You've been spreading Tesla FUD for almost a year - you weren't ever going to buy a Model 3 yet you've made hundreds of posts in multiple forums about Tesla and continue to this day so I don't buy the false story you present here. Even if it was true most everyone else in the same position wouldn't still be creating new accounts and continue to spread false facts. As for correcting your facts, there are others who do that better than me but they aren't participants here (which is what prompted me to speak up). In fact you don't post much in the bimmerforums.com Tesla thread and now migrated here because there are over half a dozen folks there who own both BMW and Tesla who will call you out and completely school you in your random claims some with real battery and structural engineering experience. They are much better at showing you to be just a pure hack with no true expertise behind your opinions.

Lorenfb

It's fairly well known that Tesla traded some its EV battery/motor technology (from MS), and sold hardware motors & batteries for key automotive systems technology, e.g. CAN systems
and design tech & help from Toyota, M/B, and BMW. Most are aware that a startup automotive company is not like a cell phone (Huawei - China) or a TV company (Vizio - Taiwan) startup,
i.e. no extensive & simple turn-key overall system to buy. That was one of M/B's reason for buying Chrysler, i.e. it's automotive networking design capability and knowledge of OBDII
compliance. Everyone that worked on the '90s M/Bs, knew what a kludge their system design was. BMW had the lead during the '90s, but M/B eventually achieved parity with BMW.
Remember, being an automotive startup for Tesla was not as easy as their present effort to design their own AP processor to replace Nvidia's processor, i.e. just hire Intel's key processor
designer (Jim Keller) and have wafers processed in Taiwan.

acoste

Take a breath. If someone lies here is you. I never liked bimmerforums, can't remember if I ever signed up there, I usually comment on bimmerfest. I never said I work for legacy car makers. I said I work in the automotive industry. Paranoids on other forum added "legacy". I wasn't ever excited about Tesla until I tried my friends Model 3 Performance. Then I went to check it out of the forum. And the hate and love remained. Love the acceleration and the front headlights, but that is all. Rest is still not there. There are just as many fake positive news about Tesla than negatives.
" wouldn't still be creating new accounts" I don't know of any forum I signed up recently. I joined this and Tesla's last fall.

doshc

Sorry but your story makes no sense. You've been commenting and spreading Tesla FUD for years. You have hundreds of posts on the Tesla forums and on the bimmerfest forums making claims and remarks with no experience, facts, or real engineering knowledge behind you.

Someone who was actually considering buying a Tesla would have instead joined the forums and asked educated questions amongst the owners (there are over a dozen active owners of Tesla & BMW over at bimmerfest) instead of endlessly debating with them with your nonsense presented as fact.

Now that they have completely schooled you over there you participate here, despite still neither owning Porsche or Tesla. And still under the guise that you were 'interested' in purchasing these vehicles. Since none of those posters over on the other forums are active here, it prompts me to call you out right here.

You work in the automotive industry as you say. So I think we can all infer there is clearly an invested conflict of interest here.

acoste

I don't think I have ever commented on Tesla before last October.

hf1

Your only RL contributions have been allegations, FUD, and ad hominems against another poster. Maybe stick to arguments, facts, and logic and let everyone decide for themselves what does or does not make sense.

Nlakind

I have a feeling Tesla will soon be essentially done in the consumer car market and will make a bigger play for Big Rig electric, etc. I agree with the OP, they can't compete with the likes of Porsche, Mercedes, BMW when these guys get serious.

bmwexpat

While I have no doubt that Acoste can quite adequately defend himself on the forums, I have read many of his posts on Bimmerfest and while I may not understand a fair amount of the technical aspects, as he did some deep dives into battery technology, there is no question he has an engineering background. There were a lot of back and forth discussions with several Bimmerfest form members and it was interesting. As far as FUD, seems to me that seems to occur when the Tesla acolytes run out of talking points. Just saying.

Personally, I think Tesla has pioneered the BEV portion of the auto industry and at this very moment makes some great products. However, like the vast majority of pioneers here in Silicon Valley Tesla is doomed to fail as much better capitalized competitors will copy the best parts of Tesla's designs and and figure out how to offer new products better, faster, and cheaper than Tesla can. Tesla, may currently have the top products but the corporation itself is a financial train wreck.

doshc

Others can judge for themselves on the merits of Acoste's engineering prowess or lack thereof in this long thread: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1030313&page=114
Observe the response or lack thereof when questions that require deeper critical engineering thinking is asked when blanket statements are made.

As for your statement that Tesla is doomed to fail, it's a completely unremarkable declaration that has been made since 2003. Simply joining the chorus here is a normal (and naive) reaction in not understanding how Silicon Valley can work.

Since 2003 the better capitalized competitors were going to take over, any minute, once they get serious. Yet here we are, after sixteen years of 'Tesla will fail this year'. Capturing the majority of the luxury vehicle market and managing a customer satisfaction score that equals or tops Porsche in Customer Reports 2018 survey of 500k car owners. Why did all the competitors let a company get this far? Customer expectations around OTA, online purchasing, performance, charging experience, technology, software features, etc have now completely put other companies on the defensive. I'm good friends with an executive at one of Volkswagen group companies (sorry I have to be this vague) and the execs there see Tesla as one of their top concerns with the main concern being they do not have the kind of technical expertise right now to compete on the same areas Tesla have set expectations with.

I agree with you that Tesla's financial difficulties are not simple (but yet at the same time they can easily recapitalize if they wish, if not the public markets the vast network of wealth in Silicon Valley - board member Larry Ellison net worth is over $60 Billion alone ), but IMO you are grossly underestimating - by orders of magnitude - the amount of execution it will take to compete with their products.