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Tesla existential threat?

 
Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM
  #586  
acoste
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Originally Posted by whiz944 View Post
Uh huh. The i3 costs as much as the TM3 and is less car. Bolt EV costs a little less, but it has its issues as well. (Yes, I have driven both.) Moving up the food chain, the i-Pace looks like a nice first shot. But it seems to be taking some serious hits in software stability, efficiency/range, and charging - compared to a Model S or X. It will be interesting to see where it is at in a year or two.
BMW i3 has carbonfiber chassis. Tesla has advantage on the battery price.
Some EVs are compliance cars for sure. It is still questionable when EVs will be profitable in mass scale (like a Corolla) so no wonder they are hesitating.

Originally Posted by whiz944 View Post
Methinks Elon is sandbagging to justify selling higher priced/more profitable variants for as long as he can. (Which I'd think most TSLA shareholders would agree with.)

They still have high manufacturing costs. I read in WSJ recently that they produce 6 cars per employee while BMW does 20 and GM does 44.
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Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM
  #587  
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There is plenty of hubris in the automotive industry to go around.

If EVs still had a range of only 30 miles, and did 0-60 in 20+ seconds, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Certainly not on a Porsche forum! The Tesla Roadsters have only been on the road for 11 years, and the Model S for 7 years. However I, at least, think they've been very disruptive to the auto industry. That is quite remarkable - regardless of what one thinks of the founders of Tesla and Elon. (They have always striven to build cars that many people would actually aspire towards owning. NO 'weird-mobiles'.) We are on the leading edge of a huge transition. In another 10-20 years, most uses of ICE will be history.

Frankly I'm done with ICE. I could cite the multi-thousand dollar engine and transmission maintenance and repair bills I've had on various cars over the years. The intake manifold gaskets. The head gaskets. All manner of other seals, hoses, pipes, sensors, plugs, filters, etc. The timing belts on my 944... One I refused to pay was on my nice MB sedan which I had to get rid of last summer. MB, a company which has been building automotive engines almost since the Beginning of Time, failed to properly heat treat a gear in the engine. After only 80-100k miles, it became so worn that I was facing a $6K-14K repair bill - depending on who did the work. (There was actually a class action lawsuit against MB on this, but I was too late to qualify for relief.) My point is that ICE are being forced to provide ever more power and mileage from smaller and smaller displacements. Not to mention transmissions that are constantly shifting through eleventy-five gears to keep the ICE centered in the optimal BSFC area. They may work ok when new. But when something inevitably breaks, it is $,$$$ to repair. Bottom line for me - if the other auto manufacturers want my future business, they will have to produce a viable competitor to Tesla.
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Old Yesterday, 10:08 PM
  #588  
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So why are you contributing to a Porsche forum - are you aware of the reliability ratings of the various Tesla products?

They are poorly made at the price point. I don't think anyone disputes this.

Also keep in mind it's price and utility that sells cars. Not "tech". That's why the Corrola has been so successful for so long.

Disruptive products do that and rapidly replace the now defunct product. However EV penetration rates are low even with significant support via various subsidies. Yes I know there are local exceptions to this.

I am interested in a quality lightweight performance EV - perhaps something of that ilk will be available in 5 to 10 years. Note the weight of the E Zoe.

I am am not interested in the politics of global warming as it is a matter of geological, archaeological and historical fact and record that the earths climate has been warming since the end of the last ice age which finished around 10,000 years ago. This is something well understood by the broader scientific community.

The shrillness of the debate is a function of politics and ignorance.

As to Musk - he's a world class spruiker and that's it.



Last edited by groundhog; Yesterday at 10:41 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 10:09 PM
  #589  
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great - acoste finally admitted he has no balance or perspective - it's been that way since his first post.
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM
  #590  
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^^^^^Dave thats neither fair or reasonable - the same could equally apply to the Tesla acolytes on here, perhaps even more so.

I would like to see EVs develop (I have a business thats more or less dependant on EV sales increasing), however I would like to see the market dictate growth so products evolve, become cost effective and therefore mainstream.

Unfortunately, many Tesla owners appear unrealistic particularly in relation to the current products on offer and fail to recognise there is a whole world out there with differing views and outlooks. A casual look at the car delinquency rates in the US speaks to the issue. Put it this way, Tesla owners in the main come from higher income brackets whereas people on struggle street can't afford an upmarket ICE let alone an overly priced EV.

If you want to bring people into the tent you have to have an inclusive strategy not an exclusive appearance. Conflating EVs with the politics of climate change is a major strategic blunder.

Last edited by groundhog; Yesterday at 11:04 PM.
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Old Today, 01:35 AM
  #591  
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Originally Posted by groundhog View Post
So why are you contributing to a Porsche forum - are you aware of the reliability ratings of the various Tesla products?
Um... I've been a Porsche owner for the past 32 years, and have been on rennlist since the first day it opened? I'm quite interested to see what Porsche can add to the fray.

They are poorly made at the price point. I don't think anyone disputes this.
My particular sample is fine. No complaints after 7 months.

Also keep in mind it's price and utility that sells cars. Not "tech". That's why the Corrola has been so successful for so long.

Disruptive products do that and rapidly replace the now defunct product. However EV penetration rates are low even with significant support via various subsidies. Yes I know there are local exceptions to this.
IMO the electrification cat is out of the bag, and there is no turning back. It will take 10-20 years to be truly mainstream, but it is happening.

I am interested in a quality lightweight performance EV - perhaps something of that ilk will be available in 5 to 10 years. Note the weight of the E Zoe.
That would be cool. Yet note the weight of the Model 3 is already comparable to its BMW ICE equivalent.

I am am not interested in the politics of global warming as it is a matter of geological, archaeological and historical fact and record that the earths climate has been warming since the end of the last ice age which finished around 10,000 years ago. This is something well understood by the broader scientific community.

The shrillness of the debate is a function of politics and ignorance.
Agree with you there. Hopefully none of my posts have indicated otherwise. I think there are a lot of things performance-oriented folks can get behind with electrification.

As to Musk - he's a world class spruiker and that's it.

He is in good company with a lot of other CEOs.
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Old Today, 05:57 AM
  #592  
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Originally Posted by daveo4porsche View Post
great - acoste finally admitted he has no balance or perspective - it's been that way since his first post.
I find the thread well balanced and am enjoying the arguments from both/all sides. Everyone believes that their own opinions are ôbalancedö and well thought out.
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Old Today, 06:45 AM
  #593  
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Originally Posted by whiz944 View Post
Um... I've been a Porsche owner for the past 32 years, and have been on rennlist since the first day it opened? I'm quite interested to see what Porsche can add to the fray
You and I both - I feel there is a lot of caution out there in terms of pushing the design envelope. That's why I'm keeping an eye on Renault - they can be pretty ballsy. Porsche - need to knock one out of the park and price it correctly - I think they need be very careful in the electrification of the sports car segment. The 992 smells like their first attempt will be big and heavy - I hope I'm wrong but fear the worst.
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