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Tesla existential threat?

 
Old 02-11-2019, 01:53 PM
  #556  
earl pottinger
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Somehow Acosta does not mention all the disadvantages the non-Tesla cars have.

He mentions the batteries and claim them as inferior, he however do not mention that the non-Tesla manufacturers want to raise their prices by 10%.

He complains the battery modules do not add structural strength. The chassis is strengthened instead, so what is his problem. The car is still safe.

"Jag I-pace for example wanted to be a beauty instead of having a low coeff", yet somehow he forgot the drop in range of the I-Pace.

He tries to claim there is nothing new in the electronics, strange thing to say considering self-driving features, OTA updates and the new functions that keep being add that other cars do not have.

"Audi has better motor cooling and stronger regen.", lets see it race against a Model 3 performance then.

"Audi is heavier than the X. But it has a lot more content as well.", Content that is worthless if is not what the customer needs and as he pointed out adds weight.

The problem is not that in the future a better car than a Tesla probably will be built, it is the foolish idea that at present any of the models that are out for sales are better than present Teslas.

You can't just pick a choose a few items to claim you have a better car, you need to look at the entire car to see if you have a better design.

Damn, I wish the Mission-E was the car that was coming out, that was the real good looking car.

Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla, Bollinger, Rivian and other BEVs fan)
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:32 PM
  #557  
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Originally Posted by daveo4porsche View Post
Tesla is proving harder to nail down than the Germans would like...

https://electrek.co/2019/02/09/tesla...e-engineering/

ive heard nothing but good things about the engineering of the model 3 battery and the EV motor - apparently both are real industrial breakthroughs...an honest lead in the industry.





But that's typical hyperbole from a shill for Telsa, i.e. Electrek. Remember, Tesla's present cost for the M3 is $38K, per Elon. So to maintain a GP of 20%, the M3 must sell for > $45K.
With regard to EV technology, no OEM has any significant advantage notwithstanding the battery. Now we learn that Tesla has excess inventory of the M3, i.e. the demand for
the > $50K M3 now has a negative slope.

https://tslaq.org/tesla-inventory-storage-sites/

Last edited by Lorenfb; 02-11-2019 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:35 PM
  #558  
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Originally Posted by daveo4porsche View Post
At least Acosta is consistent with the hatred.
Did he say anything that was factually incorrect? Pointing out faults, flaws, weaknesses or differences is not "hating"

Originally Posted by earl pottinger View Post
Somehow Acosta does not mention all the disadvantages the non-Tesla cars have.
Can you outline the advantages Tesla has in China, Africa or Europe.

Do you understand the difference between price and value - its a rhetorical question.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:39 PM
  #559  
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Originally Posted by groundhog View Post
Did he say anything that was factually incorrect?
No, he just left out important details.

Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla, Bollinger, Rivian and other BEVs fan)
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:09 PM
  #560  
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People will buy what they see as the best value proposition for them at a price point they can afford.

A lot of people simply don't like the way a Tesla Model 3 looks and an awful lot of people do not like the interiors. For a lot of people using vehicles in town a 5% difference in range won't matter whereas a nice interior will. I'm sorry to say the Model 3 looks like a budget car with a budget interior - nothing is really going to change that.

Think about it for one moment, in the US the Kia Soul outsold the Tesla Model 3 in January and the Camry outsold it by 4:1 in the same month.

The issue in the US is simple, at $43k its off a lot of buyers lists - those that have the money to pay for the Model 3 at the higher price point ~ $50k have probably already done the dough.

Hence, Tesla will try and penetrate European and other markets to see if it can hoover up niche buyers - keep in mind there's not really much love for the Model S in Europe and where there has been lots of uptake e.g. Norway (due to abundant hydroelectric schemes - paid for by north sea oil and gas revenue via the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund), there are plenty of chewed off customers as there's been lots of service and maintenance problems that have taken forever to be dealt with.

Last edited by groundhog; 02-11-2019 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:55 AM
  #561  
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I'm not sure where you get your data from but as someone who lives in Europe (for the next 39 days at least) I would disagree with your assertion that there is little love for the Model S here.
This is based on a couple of observations:
1) There are 2 in my town
2) My sons even spent a happy journey a few months back counting Model S vs Porsches. They saw more Model S's than they did Porsches (of any model)
3) The Model S was the 5th best selling premium large vehicle in 2017 in Europe.
Car sales volumes 2017

I accept that you could argue that the Tesla is mis-categorised here and should instead be measured against higher volume saloons/sedans but the fact remains, it sold a decent 16k vehicles in 2017 and increased in 2018. It's a low volume compared to the likes of the BMW 3 and 4 series (193k sales combined) but it equals the volume of the BMW 2-series.
In the same period the equivalent US sales were: 27k Model S sales. 11k BMW 2-series and 99k BMW 3/4 series sales.

So the Model S is performing better in the US against these very random benchmarks but I wouldn't say it's unloved.

Last edited by EvilTed; 02-12-2019 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:22 AM
  #562  
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I love how people that don’t own the cars hate them, but for some reason people who do own them like them - oh well - hopefully we will have choice soon - come on Taycan!
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:12 PM
  #563  
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https://news.yahoo.com/tesla-apos-ch...125200721.html

Tesla’s advantage vs competition due to super charging network.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:15 AM
  #564  
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Carbase reporting

"Tesla started its European Model S sales in 2013, when it opened a factory in The Netherlands, to assemble American-made Model S sedans for the European market. Before 2013, the brand had sold the Roadster in low volumes in Europe. The Model S has taken the all-electric brand to new heights, selling over 16.000 cars in Europe in 2017, making it the third best selling EV in the continent, behind the much cheaper Renault Zoe and Nissan Leaf.

The success of the fully electric Model S, which competes in the same class as the BMW 5-series, Mercedes-Benz E-Class and Audi A6, is still dependent on government incentives on EV’s. With Norway and The Netherlands leading in stimulating green transportation, it makes sense that Tesla sales in Europe took off first in these two countries. In the first years of sales, these two countries have taken over 80% of Model S sales and while the success of the American brand has spread across the continent, the Scandinavian country still leads the charts in absolute figures.

This is a result of generous monetary and non-monetary incentives in Norway, where all-electric cars are exempt from all non-recurring vehicle fees, including purchase taxes, which are extremely high for ordinary cars, and 25% VAT on purchase, together making an electric car purchase price competitive with that of a similarly sized conventional car. Electric vehicles are also exempt from the annual road tax, all public parking fees, and toll payments, as well as being able to use bus lanes until 2018 or until the 50.000 EV target is achieved.

Tesla had a big fleet order in 2014 from two Dutch taxi companies which are using a combined 167 Tesla Model S 100% electric sedans to transport airline passengers to and from Amsterdam Schiphol airport.

The Model X crossover started sales in Europe in the second half of 2016 and has given the brand another boost, with nearly 12.000 sales in its first full year, bringing Tesla brand sales to a peak of 28.000 vehicles in 2017."

Percentage of Euro sales - reality check

2018 0.00%
2017 0.18%
2016 0.00%
2015 0.11%
2014 0.07%
2013 0.03%

Tesla biggest market is Norway - read article

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-service-woes

A country of just more than 5 million people, Norway is nevertheless Tesla’s third-biggest market thanks to generous incentives for low-emission vehicles and high taxes on regular cars. But a lack of capacity for maintenance and repairs has led to long queues, raising more questions about whether the company is able to keep up with its own growth.

Read more about Tesla’s woes in Norway

In Norway, where plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles made up more than half of new car sales last year, Tesla is the lowest-ranked automaker on a list of brands for quality of service, and fourth-worst among companies in all sectors.

Its fairly clear the european market wants something other than Tesla - other than if a government massively skews the market.

How do you think the Model 3 will go against the Zoe, Leaf, 208 and VW ID.................also a rhetorical question

Last edited by groundhog; 02-13-2019 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:17 PM
  #565  
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Originally Posted by groundhog View Post

How do you think the Model 3 will go against the Zoe, Leaf, 208 and VW ID.................also a rhetorical question
Model 3 has a much larger range than those vehicles.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:39 PM
  #566  
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:06 PM
  #567  
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Originally Posted by groundhog View Post
... How do you think the Model 3 will go against the Zoe, Leaf, 208 and VW ID.................also a rhetorical question
For some reason, people think Tesla == Model S/X. The tech in those is so 2012... The tech in the Model 3 has raised the bar quite a bit. The Model 3 size is also better suited to European roads and it is half the price of the S/X. So I think it will do OK.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:34 PM
  #568  
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Zoe, Leaf, 208 and VW ID
given that all those cars actually suck compared to the 3 I think it will do fine - none of those cars are actually any good and all have serious deficiencies - at a minimum they don't have the battery production capacity to complete with Tesla on volume - something the Euro-boys are only now beginning to admit.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:57 PM
  #569  
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Originally Posted by daveo4porsche View Post
given that all those cars actually suck compared to the 3 I think it will do fine - none of those cars are actually any good and all have serious deficiencies - at a minimum they don't have the battery production capacity to complete with Tesla on volume - something the Euro-boys are only now beginning to admit.
Iím curious why you think those cars suck. I donít know much about the Zoe or 208. The current model of Nissan Leaf has limited range (which theyíre improving in the Leaf Plus coming this year), but otherwise it seems like a decent car. The VW ID hasnít even been released yet, and looks like itíll have decent range based on announced figures. VW is also building itís charging network which should be decent by next year.

I donít hate Tesla, but I donít get your hate for non-Tesla cars either.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:02 PM
  #570  
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I love my Bolt and my Tesla, and the Taycan is promising, eTron is pretty good, and the iPace is a great car - the Leaf still doesn't have active thermals and batteries degrade, the Zoe and the 208

Zoe is made by Renault - I've never been a fan of their products
208 is limited in quanties or not even shipping yet - and offers limited 150 mile range - Peugot also has a spotty record regarding quality.
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