unclewill

The 1934 Citroen Traction Avant predates the Mini, but I see your point. Can't argue with the R4 and Muira, though.
The transition from lead acid to lithium ion ushered in a new era of possibilities for EVs - also why the GM EV1 is not on the list.
How about the 2012 Tesla Model S - first mass produced self steering car?

martinced

Yup I wonder what some in this thread are on but it looks like heavy dope. The build quality of a Tesla feels utterly plastic and cheap compared to a Porsche. I understand most here are americans and that Tesla is from the US. Yet I'm no german and, well, compared to Porsche Tesla just look like your average japanese car and feels just cheap compared to Porsche. Tesla is not high-end luxury. Someone described the execution as ordinary. I think that's an understatement. I drive a Panamera and don't know what exists really above that comfort-wise and luxury-wise: ultra-high-end luxury like a Bentley Continental GT (now same base as the Panamera) and Rolls. And that's basically it. But Tesla? It is just not playing in the same league at all: they're not even remotely comparable.

Now maybe that the 0 to 60 times and tech gadgets are going to save Tesla from bankruptcy: I don't know. But what I know is that there's no way I'll ever be getting one because it's a clearly inferior product.

And this comes as a huge Elon Musk fan: I didn't like his stock-manipulating tweet but I do love SpaceX and I love it that he forced the other automakers to start investing like mad in hybrid and full electric cars. But really, please... Quality? I seriously question the sanity of a person who can sit in both a Tesla and a modern Porsche and tell me they're even remotely similar.

Archimedes

STG

Elon Musk asks for someone to take his Tesla job in tearful interview
https://dailym.ai/2vS2yHk

unclewill

S-class.

Archimedes

In other news, upon closer inspection it appears that Tesla can't actually make money on the entry level version of the Model 3 and will lose approximately $6,000 per car at that price point. Who coulda ever predicted that...

Tesla's business model reminds me of the old phony Change Bank commercials on SNL years ago. "How do we make money? Volume."

unclewill

What is your end game here? To see Tesla fail? To say "I told you so?" You already turned us all on to buoyancy, where do you go from there?

Archimedes

No end game. Just discussing Tesla. Do opinions counter to yours trouble you?

unclewill

Not really, just curious. I see a man putting his heart and soul into changing the world, building an all-American manufacturing business utilizing some of the best engineering brains in this country to literally change the way we live, and going toe to toe with giants, but still getting relentlessly trolled. I can't help but root for him. Are his products perfect? No...but it is pretty darn close considering they just started building cars 10 years ago. I've been a gearhead, car and motorcycle enthusiast and engine builder for over 30 years whose spent more time that I'd like to admit laying in the dirt under cars and trucks with grit in my eyes yet now I simply have no interest in any new vehicle that is not electric. My dopey Fiat 500e is partially to blame, the dadgum thing is so superior to all my other cars in daily driving, but also the days of drowning in disgusting fluids, foul fumes and ridiculous repair bills may finally come to an end! It's fun to play with antiques, but I won't miss the daily hassles of maintaining an ICE and all the ancillary crap that goes with it. And I thank Tesla - and Nissan - for that!

Archimedes

And I see a highly intelligent, incredibly arrogant egotist with a God complex who thinks he doesn't need to answer to anyone. But that's all moot, because what I think about Elon Musk is irrelevant - I could honestly give a rat's *** about him either way. As far as Tesla the company, I think it's more a cult than a company, its products have been massively over hyped, and its valuation isn't even remotely rooted in reality. But even that's just my opinion, other than maybe my hope that our public traded companies would be held to a higher standard of accuracy in disclosure than Tesla has been able to get away with over the past few years. On balance, I think Musk has absolutely driven the transition to EVs much faster than would have been happened otherwise, though he has blown threw a few billion of OPM and taxpayer dollars to do it. And lied his *** off at almost every step along the way. But that's the way of a cult leader, so it shouldn't be surprising.

Personally, I hope he is successful in taking the company private (so we don't have to read about it much anymore) and that it somehow survives over the longer term, thought I think both of those are a lower odds than a coin flip right now.

unclewill

I'm not a Musk cultboy, but, I am amazed at what he's accomplished.
I would've bought a Tesla by now except I think Porsche, or someone else, will do better in the next 18 months or so. That' why the local dealer has my deposit (#28 on the list!) for the Taycan. Most people aren't as picky as us enthusiasts when it comes to transportation.

groundhog

There are a lot of people that would broadly agree with you. I don't see a lot of creativity or innovation - and, worse still if he was truly driven by the environment he would have tackled one of the root causes of emissions, namely power generation. Frankly, he basically dressed up an EV company with a green wash to add market appeal and then gambled with the markets.

Personally I would like to see Tesla survive but with a mature grown up in charge. There are plenty of people that could "do his job" they simply don't want it because he has left a mess.

manitou202

Elon has created a disruptive auto maker which really hasn't happened it almost 100 years if ever. This combined with Space X proves he is truly a brilliant visionary and engineer. His biggest flaw however may be his ego, and not willing to admit he's better off sticking to the technical side of the business and letting a traditional CEO take over. I've got to imagine that it would be very hard to let someone else take on that role for a company you created.

Either way Tesla is not going away. They are too important and have too big of a following / cult to disappear. They might need rescuing financially at some point, but I'm confident they will survive. It could be a rough ride for shareholders though.

I really like their cars overall. I wish they had better quality and fit / finish, but I would be willing to overlook. My biggest annoyance with Tesla are the fans who aren't willing to admit to their flaws. They are making a very disruptive product that is flawed and doesn't compete with other cars in terms of quality and finish. It's fine to admit that.

Lorenfb

brilliant engineer - questionable

Find the key PhDs and the problem is solved. He has no engineering degree, i.e. just undergrad physics & econ.

daveo4porsche

having been in a room with Elon - he's wicked smart and doesn't need a degree - he often runs the table with PhD's schooling them regularly - lack of a formal eduction doesn't make him a lesser engineer - and he runs circles around most formally trained engineers - I've seen him do it - and it's not pretty.