Mission E / Taycan - Deposits
06-15-2018, 03:29 PM
#106
Racer
Join Date: May 2016
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I doubt there will be significant markups over MSRP, unless you absolutely must have the first one at a particular dealer.
Unlike the GT cars, this is will be a normal production car and everyone will get one in due time. It is important that you use the deposit website so Porsche and PCNA order enough to satisfy demand. Again, this is a normal production car and unless you must be #1, there will be plenty for everyone and markups “shouldn’t” be an issue.
Unlike the GT cars, this is will be a normal production car and everyone will get one in due time. It is important that you use the deposit website so Porsche and PCNA order enough to satisfy demand. Again, this is a normal production car and unless you must be #1, there will be plenty for everyone and markups “shouldn’t” be an issue.
06-17-2018, 02:15 PM
#108
Nordschleife Master
The big difference with Tesla is the Supercharger network is free to Model S and X owners ... Porsche plans to charge a fee for every KW delivered.
Porsche/VW have already started their network with the dealers needing to install 350KW /800 volt fast chargers and Electrify America are taking care of the majority of the country with their network which should be running when this new car arrives : https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan
Electrify America will establish a comprehensive, technologically advanced, and customer-friendly charging network -- to drive EV adoption by reducing charging anxiety.
In its first ZEV investment cycle, Electrify America will establish a network that includes non-proprietary electric vehicle chargers (CCS, CHAdeMO and J1772 standards) at over 650 community-based sites and nearly 300 highway sites across the country.
Hopefully this company can get the chargers up and running before these cars roll into dealerships late next year....
Other companies are also expanding their charging network and are now installing the higher voltage chargers as well.
https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point
Looking forward to seeing the production version of this car!
Electrify America will establish a comprehensive, technologically advanced, and customer-friendly charging network -- to drive EV adoption by reducing charging anxiety.
In its first ZEV investment cycle, Electrify America will establish a network that includes non-proprietary electric vehicle chargers (CCS, CHAdeMO and J1772 standards) at over 650 community-based sites and nearly 300 highway sites across the country.
- After a methodical and data driven analysis taking nearly six months, Electrify America selected seventeen metro areas including Boston, Chicago, Denver, Fresno, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York City, Philadelphia, Portland, Raleigh, Sacramento, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.
- Community-based charging station sites will be built in workplaces, retail (shopping centers, restaurants, etc.), multifamily residential locations and municipal lots and garages, as well as high-speed community depots that will feature fast EV charging at speeds of up 150kW compared with today’s peak of 50kW.
- Highway sites will be located along high-traffic corridors between metropolitan areas, including two cross-country routes, and will include between four and ten 150kW and 350kW individual DC fast chargers at each location before June 2019.
- These sites will be located no more than ~120 miles apart and on average just 70 miles apart. Many shorter range EVs will benefit from 50kW DC fast charging on the Electrify America highway network, including any CHAdeMO equipped vehicles.
Hopefully this company can get the chargers up and running before these cars roll into dealerships late next year....
Other companies are also expanding their charging network and are now installing the higher voltage chargers as well.
https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point
Looking forward to seeing the production version of this car!
06-17-2018, 03:51 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
yeah - we'll see - again in my experience over the past 4-5 years I used superchargers less than 10 times year - and when I do cost really isn't the issue (although my S/X have lifetime included/free supercharging - but I have paid to use non-Tesla CHAdeMO chargers via an adapter) - if Porsche plans to charge for charging it will have to vary by state - in some states selling kWh makes you a utility and subjects you to utility regulations, so you charge by time not power delivered to avoid this particular legal snafu.
Model 3 owners and some X/S owners pay-per use for Tesla Superchargers - Tesla's website discloses the charging fees based on state the charger is located in.
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
2nd link wil let you pop up your state and get the cost to supercharge
California is $0.26/kWh to supercharge
Nevada is time based with an adjustment for charging rate
$0.24 per minute above 60 kW
$0.12 per minute at or below 60 kW
so a P100D in California that needs 85 kWh would be about 85 * 1.1 (charging loss) * .26 = $24.31 to "fill it up" - 85 * 3.2 = 272 miles driven so $24.31 / 272 = $0.09/mile driven to supercharge in California - I paid $4.09/gallon yesterday for my GT3 for gas - Panamera gets 26 mpg = 10.46 gallons for same distance @ 4.09/gallon = $42.78 or about $0.15 mile for "fuel"...
charging me to fill up my Porsche doesn't bother me - the lack of a comprehensive charging network is more concerning - Tesla has a huge lead over virtually everyone in this space - it will take years to close the gap - and that's assuming the manufacturer actually cares to do that - which I doubt…
I still think the easiest way to make this work is to reach an agreement with Tesla to allow use of their network via an adapter - and Porsche can then also build out their 800 volt network in parallel.
Again I don't really care if they charge me for fast charging given the infrequent use only during road trips - I'm saving time so the faster charge costs is largely irrelevant - and the majority of miles are charged at home overnight or at work.
Model 3 owners and some X/S owners pay-per use for Tesla Superchargers - Tesla's website discloses the charging fees based on state the charger is located in.
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
2nd link wil let you pop up your state and get the cost to supercharge
California is $0.26/kWh to supercharge
Nevada is time based with an adjustment for charging rate
$0.24 per minute above 60 kW
$0.12 per minute at or below 60 kW
so a P100D in California that needs 85 kWh would be about 85 * 1.1 (charging loss) * .26 = $24.31 to "fill it up" - 85 * 3.2 = 272 miles driven so $24.31 / 272 = $0.09/mile driven to supercharge in California - I paid $4.09/gallon yesterday for my GT3 for gas - Panamera gets 26 mpg = 10.46 gallons for same distance @ 4.09/gallon = $42.78 or about $0.15 mile for "fuel"...
charging me to fill up my Porsche doesn't bother me - the lack of a comprehensive charging network is more concerning - Tesla has a huge lead over virtually everyone in this space - it will take years to close the gap - and that's assuming the manufacturer actually cares to do that - which I doubt…
I still think the easiest way to make this work is to reach an agreement with Tesla to allow use of their network via an adapter - and Porsche can then also build out their 800 volt network in parallel.
Again I don't really care if they charge me for fast charging given the infrequent use only during road trips - I'm saving time so the faster charge costs is largely irrelevant - and the majority of miles are charged at home overnight or at work.
06-17-2018, 05:04 PM
#111
Agreement with Tesla? Uh, isn't Tesla the company run by a socialist huckster 110% reliant on taxpayer subsidies, unable to hit production targets, yet laying off 9% of their workforce, with cars that when they aren't crashing into things are just spontaneously bursting into flames so bad they now face a 66% order cancellation rate? That Tesla?
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...n-deadline-app
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...usts-la-street
Yup. That Tesla.
And that's the "easiest way to make this work"?
Kool-Ade? Or pipe?
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...n-deadline-app
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...usts-la-street
Yup. That Tesla.
And that's the "easiest way to make this work"?
Kool-Ade? Or pipe?
06-17-2018, 06:53 PM
#112
Rennlist Member
As always Chuck we disagree - cherry picking overblown and partially factual stories to make yourself feel better shows your bias and fear of the new world.
06-17-2018, 08:39 PM
#113
Nordschleife Master
The truth will set you free ... https://insideevs.com/porsche-no-fre...lose-gasoline/
No free ride at the Porsche pump
When Porsche Mission E owners first pull up to the fast-charging power pump, they will be reminded that the price of the juice needed by their premium EV was not included in the original invoice. Unlike Tesla, whose mission is “to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport…,” and offered, free lifetime Supercharging to owners of the Model S and Model X, the German automaker is a little less altruistic.This, according to Gearbrain, who reported that the company’s deputy chairman of the executive board, Lutz Meschke, replied to a question about whether Porsche would run its charging facilities as profits centers thusly:
Yes, we want to earn money with the new products and services. Of course. Yes.
06-17-2018, 08:59 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
I did the math once on $2,500 worth of electricity @ $0.25 kWh = 10,000 kWh = or about 3x,000 miles of driving using superchargers to 'break even' - but as you probably already know it was never about the cost of the "fuel" - rather it was all about the fast charging rate and the fact that it enabled long trips to be possible.
perhaps Porsche will offer different grade of electrons: regular, mid grade, and premium electrons to mirror different gasoline grades
06-17-2018, 09:35 PM
#115
Racer
Join Date: May 2016
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The truth will set you free ... https://insideevs.com/porsche-no-fre...lose-gasoline/
No free ride at the Porsche pump
When Porsche Mission E owners first pull up to the fast-charging power pump, they will be reminded that the price of the juice needed by their premium EV was not included in the original invoice. Unlike Tesla, whose mission is “to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport…,” and offered, free lifetime Supercharging to owners of the Model S and Model X, the German automaker is a little less altruistic.This, according to Gearbrain, who reported that the company’s deputy chairman of the executive board, Lutz Meschke, replied to a question about whether Porsche would run its charging facilities as profits centers thusly:
06-17-2018, 10:12 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
the best possibility which is real - is that the Porsche fast chargers might not be limited to Porsche only - using a standard connector and being part of Audi/VW group and in co-operation with other manufactures the Porsche fast charging network could work for DC Fast/SAECombo cars as well as Porsches in North America, and similarly for European standards....
you could also offer "included" or "reduced" charging costs for the initial warranty period (4 years/50,000 miles) and then pay per use after that - there is all sorts of things that could be done...
however it's going to be a while until there are 1,261 charing locations with 10,021 stalls - with plans to double the number of stalls by end the of 2018 - Tesla will still be the only network with any penetration for quite some time…
you could also offer "included" or "reduced" charging costs for the initial warranty period (4 years/50,000 miles) and then pay per use after that - there is all sorts of things that could be done...
however it's going to be a while until there are 1,261 charing locations with 10,021 stalls - with plans to double the number of stalls by end the of 2018 - Tesla will still be the only network with any penetration for quite some time…
06-19-2018, 02:01 PM
#117
Electrify America costs:
https://electricrevs.com/2018/05/02/...ap-to-website/
"According to an operator answering Electrify America’s support number, the initial Massachusetts location will charge 30 cents per minute plus a $1 session fee. A half-hour charge would thus cost $10. Prices may vary on per-state basis although it is expected to typically be 30 to 35 cents per minute. For now, the same prices apply regardless of whether a 50 kW CHAdeMO or a higher-powered CCS cable is being used. Subscription-based pricing is being actively considered but has not yet been announced.
As a comparison, charging operator EVgo has a non-subscription price of 35 cents per minute in Massachusetts but no session fee which would be $10.50 for 30 minutes. A subscription plan is available for $9.99 per month that pre-pays that much in initial charging and lowers the fee to 21 cents per minute. After the first 47 minutes ($9.99 divided by 21 cents) of charging in a month, that would lower the 30 minute cost of charging to $6.30.
Tesla’s “pay as you go” fee at Supercharger sites in Massachusetts is 23 cents per kilowatt-hour rather than being billed per minute. Whether billing is legal on a per-kWh basis differs from state to state. Historically, only utilities have been allowed to sell electricity on a per-kWh basis but some states have updated their laws to allow it for EV charging and Massachusetts is one of those states.
A pay-per-minute rule has the effect of penalizing slower charging vehicles since they add less energy per minute than faster charging vehicles.
At a 60 kW average charge rate, a kWh is being added to a vehicle every minute so 23 cents per minute or 23 cents per kWh would be essentially the same cost to a driver.
If a future vehicle like a Jaguar I-PACE or an Audi e-tron were charging at an average rate of 90 kW at an Electrify America station with a 30 cents per-minute rate it would be adding about 1.5 kWh per minute of charging time so the per kWh price would effectively be 20 cents. That is roughly similar to what a Tesla vehicle might average at one of the Tesla Supercharger locations in Massachusetts at 23 cents per kWh.
Meanwhile, a slower charging vehicle like a Chevrolet Bolt EV might have an average charging rate of a bit under 60 kW and so it’s per-kWh price would effectively be a bit higher than 30 cents at the same Electrify America station. A Bolt EV successfully charged at the new Chicopee location today at a peak rate of 56 kW and a Kia Soul EV charged at up to 68 kW even though Electrify America had said the CHAdeMO charge cables would be software-limited to 50 kW."
https://electricrevs.com/2018/05/02/...ap-to-website/
"According to an operator answering Electrify America’s support number, the initial Massachusetts location will charge 30 cents per minute plus a $1 session fee. A half-hour charge would thus cost $10. Prices may vary on per-state basis although it is expected to typically be 30 to 35 cents per minute. For now, the same prices apply regardless of whether a 50 kW CHAdeMO or a higher-powered CCS cable is being used. Subscription-based pricing is being actively considered but has not yet been announced.
As a comparison, charging operator EVgo has a non-subscription price of 35 cents per minute in Massachusetts but no session fee which would be $10.50 for 30 minutes. A subscription plan is available for $9.99 per month that pre-pays that much in initial charging and lowers the fee to 21 cents per minute. After the first 47 minutes ($9.99 divided by 21 cents) of charging in a month, that would lower the 30 minute cost of charging to $6.30.
Tesla’s “pay as you go” fee at Supercharger sites in Massachusetts is 23 cents per kilowatt-hour rather than being billed per minute. Whether billing is legal on a per-kWh basis differs from state to state. Historically, only utilities have been allowed to sell electricity on a per-kWh basis but some states have updated their laws to allow it for EV charging and Massachusetts is one of those states.
A pay-per-minute rule has the effect of penalizing slower charging vehicles since they add less energy per minute than faster charging vehicles.
At a 60 kW average charge rate, a kWh is being added to a vehicle every minute so 23 cents per minute or 23 cents per kWh would be essentially the same cost to a driver.
If a future vehicle like a Jaguar I-PACE or an Audi e-tron were charging at an average rate of 90 kW at an Electrify America station with a 30 cents per-minute rate it would be adding about 1.5 kWh per minute of charging time so the per kWh price would effectively be 20 cents. That is roughly similar to what a Tesla vehicle might average at one of the Tesla Supercharger locations in Massachusetts at 23 cents per kWh.
Meanwhile, a slower charging vehicle like a Chevrolet Bolt EV might have an average charging rate of a bit under 60 kW and so it’s per-kWh price would effectively be a bit higher than 30 cents at the same Electrify America station. A Bolt EV successfully charged at the new Chicopee location today at a peak rate of 56 kW and a Kia Soul EV charged at up to 68 kW even though Electrify America had said the CHAdeMO charge cables would be software-limited to 50 kW."
06-19-2018, 02:33 PM
#118
Gents,
Thank you for the very useful electrical information on charging stations. Now for the uninitiated on EVs like me. I have a Mission E on order with Champion Porsche in SoFla which I am still 50/50 on completing or not. Has anyone ran the metrics of charging costs against driveable distance and compared them against the same distance traveled on gas? I mean if 200 miles on a Mission E are going to cost $10.50 for 30 minutes of charge what is that equivalent in distance traveled as roughly $10.50 can still get you 3.5 gallons of gas good for 65 miles driven on a non efficient performance car. For Example Porsche Panamera Turbo which I also have owned. Appreciate the feedback as all of this will account for my final decision.
Thank you for the very useful electrical information on charging stations. Now for the uninitiated on EVs like me. I have a Mission E on order with Champion Porsche in SoFla which I am still 50/50 on completing or not. Has anyone ran the metrics of charging costs against driveable distance and compared them against the same distance traveled on gas? I mean if 200 miles on a Mission E are going to cost $10.50 for 30 minutes of charge what is that equivalent in distance traveled as roughly $10.50 can still get you 3.5 gallons of gas good for 65 miles driven on a non efficient performance car. For Example Porsche Panamera Turbo which I also have owned. Appreciate the feedback as all of this will account for my final decision.
06-19-2018, 04:38 PM
#119
Drifting
Gents,
Thank you for the very useful electrical information on charging stations. Now for the uninitiated on EVs like me. I have a Mission E on order with Champion Porsche in SoFla which I am still 50/50 on completing or not. Has anyone ran the metrics of charging costs against driveable distance and compared them against the same distance traveled on gas? I mean if 200 miles on a Mission E are going to cost $10.50 for 30 minutes of charge what is that equivalent in distance traveled as roughly $10.50 can still get you 3.5 gallons of gas good for 65 miles driven on a non efficient performance car. For Example Porsche Panamera Turbo which I also have owned. Appreciate the feedback as all of this will account for my final decision.
Thank you for the very useful electrical information on charging stations. Now for the uninitiated on EVs like me. I have a Mission E on order with Champion Porsche in SoFla which I am still 50/50 on completing or not. Has anyone ran the metrics of charging costs against driveable distance and compared them against the same distance traveled on gas? I mean if 200 miles on a Mission E are going to cost $10.50 for 30 minutes of charge what is that equivalent in distance traveled as roughly $10.50 can still get you 3.5 gallons of gas good for 65 miles driven on a non efficient performance car. For Example Porsche Panamera Turbo which I also have owned. Appreciate the feedback as all of this will account for my final decision.
(200/$10.50) = 19.05 miles/$ == or 5.2c/mile
/
(65/$10.50) = 6.19 miles/$ == or 16.16c/mile
which is about 3x delta.
You'd also have to toss in $ for oil changes (depending on what oil you use and if you do it yourself -- this can vary widely)
let's assume you do it yourself -- $100 for oil and filter every 6000 miles, or 1.67c/mile
which adds about a 10% cost for the ICE.
Mike
06-19-2018, 05:07 PM
#120
Rennlist Member
@txhokie4life 's numbers are correct
as long as the price per/kwh is less than about $0.30 then EV's are 2-4 times less per mile driven
rule of thumb is 1 kWh = 2.5-5 miles driven per-kWh - Leaf is a 4 mile/kWh car, Model S is about 3.3 mile/kWh, Model 3 is about 3.8 mile/kwh - Chevy bolt is about 4.2 miles/kWh under typical highway conditions - I expect the Mission-E to come in around the 3.2 - 3.6 mles/kWh range - so similar to the Tesla Model S in terms of consumption.
given that most charging is done at home - I tend to ignore the cost of 'fast chargers' used during a road trip - since it's the time I'm paying for, not the fuel ;-) but that's a perspective thing.
as long as the price per/kwh is less than about $0.30 then EV's are 2-4 times less per mile driven
rule of thumb is 1 kWh = 2.5-5 miles driven per-kWh - Leaf is a 4 mile/kWh car, Model S is about 3.3 mile/kWh, Model 3 is about 3.8 mile/kwh - Chevy bolt is about 4.2 miles/kWh under typical highway conditions - I expect the Mission-E to come in around the 3.2 - 3.6 mles/kWh range - so similar to the Tesla Model S in terms of consumption.
given that most charging is done at home - I tend to ignore the cost of 'fast chargers' used during a road trip - since it's the time I'm paying for, not the fuel ;-) but that's a perspective thing.