jlanka

Instead of hijacking the Toyo RR pressure thread, I'm starting this new thread. PL Newman posted this video of FeuerRacing (aka Chris) running a very fast lap at Sebring. He's referencing his wheel work in the turns, which I've been told I need to work on. I spun in turn 10 at WGI and was told my hands were too quiet. So I'm looking for an explanation of what is going on with Chris' hands. Each time he "saws" the wheel, did he actually feel a spin start and is preventing it? Or is he "butt sensing" an impending spin and catching it before the tires actually go sideways? I'm pretty sure slip angle is also involved here.

I'm trying to learn this technique and would love to know what is going on here.

Thanks,

Jeff

FeuerRacing:


My spin at WGI:

audipwr1

Go to rally school - catching a car isn't that tough once you can sustain it in a slide

toddlamb

Chris does saw at the wheel at turn in (see about 1:23 in the video for example). It's a bad habit he's working on. He's trying to test the grip at corner entry with steering inputs.

After turn in, it's all seat of the pants. You must feel the rotation of the car and act accordingly. Depending on circumstances you'll need some steering correction and/or some throttle adjustment as the slip angles change.

Also entry speed plays a huge factor. The slower you go in, the less rotation you get, the more stable the car feels, and the easier it is to drive. All at the cost of lap times. And vise-versa for faster entry speeds, to a point.

It is well established these SPB's get a lot of rotation on corner entry. If you don't control this with precise steering inputs and early throttle application (transfers weight to the rear and controls the amount of rotation) you'll have a handful of a car before you ever get to the apex. However, add too much throttle too soon and you end up with a massive push from the apex to the exit of the corner. It's a very tough balancing act to get right.

For the WGI T10 spin - the rear end of that car was already gone at turn in. I would take a very hard look at setup. Also, the turn in was a little early and hands were slow (both on initial turn in and to react to the slide). A little throttle at turn in (10-25%) would have settled the car as well.

jlanka

Todd, thanks for the input. Pretty sure the bulk of the problem with my spin was not car setup (done by Bill Rudtner) but me hitting the brakes thinking I was too fast on entry (didn't mention that in my initial post). But I have a follow up question. At around :11 or :12 into the video, a quick correction coupled with some maintenance throttle rather than brake would have saved the spin?

jlanka

Any recommendations?

HoBoJoe

The only Rally school I found on the east coast a while back, hoping to make it there one day.

Team O'Neil is in New Hampshire. https://teamoneil.com

PLNewman

My personal experience after a year in SPB is that the platform really appreciates input at all times. I have really worked on reducing the amount of time spent taking my foot off the throttle to putting it on the brake...and back to throttle. Coasting not only loses time, but it leaves the car confused.

That "dead space" between throttle and brake is when the SPB is most vulnerable. When I was new to the platform, I was spinning left and right. That has pretty much ended with later braking and quicker throttle application. The car is much more planted now.

What Chris and Todd are able to do (and the reason they're so friggin fast) is to transition from full (late) braking to full throttle so quickly. They brake deeper into a turn (and only enough to settle the car...not slow it down), then immediately begin applying throttle to plant the rear of the car and accelerate from the apex out.

Chris likes to say that he steers the REAR of the car, not the FRONT. The sooner you can get the rear end pointed in the direction you want to go, the sooner you can go full throttle. Over the course of a lap, picking up a fraction of a second a turn, these guys are 3-4 seconds faster than the rest of us mere mortals.

toddlamb

You do need to brake for that corner, but are you saying you were on the brakes after turn in, instead of starting to apply throttle? That would certainly do it.

But yes that was savable with a little throttle to settle the back end, coupled with quick hands for correction. (not sawing at the wheel, just a single very quick countersteer)

DirtFish rally school is the only one I know - up in Washington state.

Or skidpad training pretty much anywhere would work.

FeuerRacing

I echo Todd's thoughts but did want to add some additional comments.

Studying my data vs many other SPBs is I gain a lot of time on corner entry over other SPBs. However, entry gains exceed the lost time on exit/straight on some corners and the opposite of others.

So obviously I'm trying to work on continuing to keep driving the corners where the entry speed gain exceeds the exit lost (Sebring T10). But then adjusting to give up entry speed on the corners that I'm losing time on (Sebring T13) by braking earlier/less, transitioning the car smoother (no sawing) and rolling onto power well before apex. I'm still working on having a Jekyll and Hyde approach but right now.. I'm all Hyde.

I was given some great advice to have my AiM system go red when my braking PSI exceeds 1800. The screen actually goes red and it says "Much Brakey Brakey" so I know if I've exceeded ABS capabilities where I'm getting negative braking affects. You can see the red screen on the AiM dash flash in the video.

This is the #1 driving goal for my 2017 racing season - to be able to attack corners very differently based on gains in or out of the apex.

Below is an example of the braking differences at Sebring against Gladwill (we post times within tenths of eachother) and you can see the loss/gains against his driving style vs mine. I'm the Red Line and John is the Blue.

But like I said earlier, I'm going to try to combine my fast corners and replace my slower corners with Gladwill's style... Jekyll and Hyde.

So choose the style that works best for you or do multiple. Best of luck and lots of good feedback on this thread.

<Deleted Image Until I'm Confident of GPS Shift>

toddlamb

Chris - agree on the balance of slow in/fast out vs. fast in/slow out (especially in these cars) BUT looking at the graph you posted there is a huge data/GPS shift between the red and the blue traces.

Assume John is using a Solo instead of a dash? I've seen this happen a lot and you have to manually adjust the data to match up properly.

FeuerRacing

He is but the graph is the same when looking at Matt Travis who has an AiM MXS. I will get his data and see if it's improved. For COTA this weekend, I will add a solo to my car and validate if it is or is not a GPS shift.

I would say it's accurate because:
1) The MPH peaks is higher on corners I gained time as the speed was carried for longer thus taller.
2) When I was behind JG on Sprint 2 my data overlays with him MUCH CLOSER as I was having to brake sooner so I didn't hit the back of him on turn-in and driving in a more "non Hyde state"

audipwr1

Those upshifts Chris - so impressive - you must teach me

i agree with Chris re corner entry, if I look at my data versus others all the time I make on them is chucking the car into the corner, trail brake and reasonably aggressive steering input speed (with sometimes some counter) is the fastest way to drive a SPB. Seen all the other fast guys do the same in their data that I have analyzed. The platform likes being loose on entry

audipwr1

I have done Dirtfish twice - very good

O'Neil is also good, he is a rock star driver.

toddlamb

I've run both the MXL2 and the Solo in my car and there's a big difference. What I didn't check was to see if the tracks (start/finish coords) were set the same in each unit.

You've got way too much difference in that graph to be apples to apples comparison. For example the distance in initial brake application for the hairpin is over 200ft on your graph. That should be more like 5-10ft max difference for the two of you.

jlanka

Yeah I was stupidly on the brakes after turn-in, rookie mistake. Learned a lot from that and my mantra ever since then has been to get on the gas as soon as possible which helped me greatly improve my lap time at WGI later in August. Excellent tips here on this thread, and I'll re-read them all a few times to digest them.

My focus on starting this thread was to get some hands feedback (I've often wished to see what Matt Muller is doing with his hands but he doesn't have that camera shot). I'll keep looking for more, and I can't wait till VIR on 3/15. To all on their way to COTA have a blast, I'll be getting reports from Bill and his pals.

Jeff