Race Headers+Tune: BGB/Cargraphic vs. Dundon
06-14-2019, 12:54 PM
#1
Race Headers+Tune: BGB/Cargraphic vs. Dundon
It's finally time for race headers + tune now that my gearbox is getting replaced under warranty and I don't have to worry about my dealer giving me trouble. I have followed threads regarding the Dundon GT4 header power claims, but the debate around dyno setup influencing the claimed results didn't seem to get resolved. Has anyone done a back-to-back of Cargraphics vs. Dundon race headers to see the performance difference?
Dundon has a comparison to Fabspeeds up on their site, but Cargraphic's tubes should be longer than Fabspeed's. Some parties claim the Dundons do make a difference and some say there is no difference at all - seems like this shouldn't be too hard to understand if there is objective data.
The price difference is substantial, so thanks for the help in understanding.
Dundon has a comparison to Fabspeeds up on their site, but Cargraphic's tubes should be longer than Fabspeed's. Some parties claim the Dundons do make a difference and some say there is no difference at all - seems like this shouldn't be too hard to understand if there is objective data.
The price difference is substantial, so thanks for the help in understanding.
06-14-2019, 05:15 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I went with Dundon on my GT4, 991.1 GT3 and 991 2 GT3. Outstanding product and customer service.
06-14-2019, 05:16 PM
#4
06-14-2019, 08:21 PM
#5
I have seen several customers report of their satisfaction with Dundon, but this seems to be without data backing up the much higher header price. Trying to keep the discussion objective and data-driven.
06-14-2019, 09:44 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I’m not sure what’s so hard to believe. As with any race headers, losing the cats is what is netting you the extra power. Don’t need a dyno to prove that claim. All of those headers will be fairly close in gains. With Dundon, you’re paying for 321 stainless steel, which is far more expensive than 304 ss. 321 has titanium in it and is lighter and more durable under extreme heat. Only you can judge if that’s worth it to you.
06-14-2019, 11:11 PM
#7
I’m not sure what’s so hard to believe. As with any race headers, losing the cats is what is netting you the extra power. Don’t need a dyno to prove that claim. All of those headers will be fairly close in gains. With Dundon, you’re paying for 321 stainless steel, which is far more expensive than 304 ss. 321 has titanium in it and is lighter and more durable under extreme heat. Only you can judge if that’s worth it to you.
https://www.dundonmotorsports.com/bl...r-race-headers
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06-14-2019, 11:12 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
For what its worth: When getting my new transmission, Tech's and SA made it a point to meet me after they saw all the suspension and header mods I have. They kept commenting its nice to see a GT4 prepped for tracking. You may want to also consider Sole headers. I love mine. Words cannot describe the exhaust note. Don't know how they dyno - but I felt a difference in driving. Plus the folks at Sole give outstanding service (I'm sure the others do too). I suggest you give Sole a call.
06-15-2019, 01:20 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
That said, there probably aren't a dozen people in the world that have dynoed the same car with the same mods on the same dyno with multiple headers under similar conditions so I wouldn't hold my breath on them posting here on RL. If you really want to get into the data driven weeds, both DMS and Fabspeed headers have gone through multiple revisions over time (not sure about CG) so results will very based on version AND even then different cars, dynos, mods, and tuning make it almost impossible to find comps - one header might yield the most power with the stock PSE while a different header might yield the most power with exhaust X, one tune might perform better on header X vs Y but another tune might reverse that, and so on. I've seen many dynos of many different GT4 headers from the same dyno and they are all over the place. They all make power but too many variations in both car and environment to empirically say header X is 10hp better than header Y. The only way to get the answer you're looking for is to buy them all and dyno test them yourself on your car.
I have the DMS headers, my car has has gone through many many dyno runs, and I can say they perform as good as any other catless race headers out there. The DMS team is a great supporter of the Porsche community ($ and actions), they stand behind their products 100%, as mentioned they do use superior materials are beautifully designed/executed, the headers will not throw a CEL, and they are made here in the USA. I know I know, that's a lot of subjective reporting so I've gone off topic...
If you want the most hp/$, then buy the cheapest catless headers.
If you want the most hp gain on your car, buy them all and dyno them.
If you want the "best" headers, I think it's worth considering that it may be more than a purely data driven evaluation.
06-15-2019, 01:56 AM
#10
Good job, ask for help and then tell people their help isn't valuable. A little courtesy might help illicit more feedback... or just general good karma...
That said, there probably aren't a dozen people in the world that have dynoed the same car with the same mods on the same dyno with multiple headers under similar conditions so I wouldn't hold my breath on them posting here on RL. If you really want to get into the data driven weeds, both DMS and Fabspeed headers have gone through multiple revisions over time (not sure about CG) so results will very based on version AND even then different cars, dynos, mods, and tuning make it almost impossible to find comps - one header might yield the most power with the stock PSE while a different header might yield the most power with exhaust X, one tune might perform better on header X vs Y but another tune might reverse that, and so on. I've seen many dynos of many different GT4 headers from the same dyno and they are all over the place. They all make power but too many variations in both car and environment to empirically say header X is 10hp better than header Y. The only way to get the answer you're looking for is to buy them all and dyno test them yourself on your car.
I have the DMS headers, my car has has gone through many many dyno runs, and I can say they perform as good as any other catless race headers out there. The DMS team is a great supporter of the Porsche community ($ and actions), they stand behind their products 100%, as mentioned they do use superior materials are beautifully designed/executed, the headers will not throw a CEL, and they are made here in the USA. I know I know, that's a lot of subjective reporting so I've gone off topic...
If you want the most hp/$, then buy the cheapest catless headers.
If you want the most hp gain on your car, buy them all and dyno them.
If you want the "best" headers, I think it's worth considering that it may be more than a purely data driven evaluation.
That said, there probably aren't a dozen people in the world that have dynoed the same car with the same mods on the same dyno with multiple headers under similar conditions so I wouldn't hold my breath on them posting here on RL. If you really want to get into the data driven weeds, both DMS and Fabspeed headers have gone through multiple revisions over time (not sure about CG) so results will very based on version AND even then different cars, dynos, mods, and tuning make it almost impossible to find comps - one header might yield the most power with the stock PSE while a different header might yield the most power with exhaust X, one tune might perform better on header X vs Y but another tune might reverse that, and so on. I've seen many dynos of many different GT4 headers from the same dyno and they are all over the place. They all make power but too many variations in both car and environment to empirically say header X is 10hp better than header Y. The only way to get the answer you're looking for is to buy them all and dyno test them yourself on your car.
I have the DMS headers, my car has has gone through many many dyno runs, and I can say they perform as good as any other catless race headers out there. The DMS team is a great supporter of the Porsche community ($ and actions), they stand behind their products 100%, as mentioned they do use superior materials are beautifully designed/executed, the headers will not throw a CEL, and they are made here in the USA. I know I know, that's a lot of subjective reporting so I've gone off topic...
If you want the most hp/$, then buy the cheapest catless headers.
If you want the most hp gain on your car, buy them all and dyno them.
If you want the "best" headers, I think it's worth considering that it may be more than a purely data driven evaluation.
Were you able to check out the dyno chart that Dundon published in the link above? I will paste the image here. It's exactly the unicorn you are describing - Dundon vs. Fabspeed back to back without a tune. I could understand if a set of competing headers wins in certain RPM ranges and loses in others, but the difference here is quite large with gains for Dundon all the way across the RPM range. If that's real and also representative of Dundon vs. Cargraphic, that's pretty crazy. We are talking about 25-30HP deltas - not negligible.
Sincere thanks for your input.
06-15-2019, 06:38 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
If you look at the link in the first post, you can see that Dundon's whole premise is contrary to your statement that all race headers are close in gains. They have a dyno plot posted in the link too. I will include it here again so it's easy to see.
https://www.dundonmotorsports.com/bl...r-race-headers
https://www.dundonmotorsports.com/bl...r-race-headers
Last edited by Five12Free; 06-15-2019 at 07:31 AM.
06-15-2019, 02:39 PM
#12
The implication from Dundon's page (and other communications) is that all other race headers will fall below Dundon's in terms of performance gains. Obviously Cargraphic isn't shown on the dyno plot along with Fabspeed and Dundon, so it's hard to come to a solid conclusion. This is the basis for my post.
I suppose, if there is a plot showing that Cargraphic also beats Fabspeed race headers by a 5-30 HP offset, that would be interesting. I don't recall seeing one though.
I'd think that long tube vs. extra-long tube would show a trade-off depending on RPM range, but, again, that's not what is shown in the data.
06-15-2019, 03:04 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Agree that Cargraphic headers are not the same as Fabspeed's. I tried to highlight the tube length difference between those two brands in the opening post.
The implication from Dundon's page (and other communications) is that all other race headers will fall below Dundon's in terms of performance gains. Obviously Cargraphic isn't shown on the dyno plot along with Fabspeed and Dundon, so it's hard to come to a solid conclusion. This is the basis for my post.
I suppose, if there is a plot showing that Cargraphic also beats Fabspeed race headers by a 5-30 HP offset, that would be interesting. I don't recall seeing one though.
I'd think that long tube vs. extra-long tube would show a trade-off depending on RPM range, but, again, that's not what is shown in the data.
The implication from Dundon's page (and other communications) is that all other race headers will fall below Dundon's in terms of performance gains. Obviously Cargraphic isn't shown on the dyno plot along with Fabspeed and Dundon, so it's hard to come to a solid conclusion. This is the basis for my post.
I suppose, if there is a plot showing that Cargraphic also beats Fabspeed race headers by a 5-30 HP offset, that would be interesting. I don't recall seeing one though.
I'd think that long tube vs. extra-long tube would show a trade-off depending on RPM range, but, again, that's not what is shown in the data.
06-16-2019, 10:14 PM
#14
Doubt you’re going to find someone who has owned both Dundon and Cargraphics. So finding independent dynos of both is going to be hard. Comparisons have to be same car, same day, and same dyno to mean anything. Looking at BGB’s claims, I bet the numbers will be fairly close. Everyone who has owned either have been happy, so I return back to, only you can be the judge if the Dundon’s 321SS is worth it.
I totally agree with this......I have the Cargrahics race and I'm very happy with them. If you ask me the difference between one or the other is more tangible on the different material used. I would bet the power output will be very close.
Now if you look at the Fabspeed then you can see from a design standpoint they are different and may leave some power on the table.
06-17-2019, 06:18 AM
#15
Both long tube headers, no cats, with no tune, and simply quoted off their websites:
Cargraphic quote a gain of +12kW(16PS)/(15BHP) more power and 15Nm(11ftlbs) additional torque
Dundon quote a gain +41whp and 42wtq.
So the Dundon figures are over 2.5 times greater (assuming cargraphic are also expressing power/torque figures at the wheel, otherwise the difference is even greater).
Either one of them is wrong, or they are both right, or they are both wrong, or the dynos (and the circumstances of the dyno runs) are significantly different.
I agree it is equally unclear as to the disparity in the figures quoted, irrespective of knowing that there are variables involved, the differences seem large for what are ostensibly a very similar product (materials and workmanship aside, which I don't believe contribute immediately to the power/torque figures, rathermore durability, fit/finish etc).
Cargraphic quote a gain of +12kW(16PS)/(15BHP) more power and 15Nm(11ftlbs) additional torque
Dundon quote a gain +41whp and 42wtq.
So the Dundon figures are over 2.5 times greater (assuming cargraphic are also expressing power/torque figures at the wheel, otherwise the difference is even greater).
Either one of them is wrong, or they are both right, or they are both wrong, or the dynos (and the circumstances of the dyno runs) are significantly different.
I agree it is equally unclear as to the disparity in the figures quoted, irrespective of knowing that there are variables involved, the differences seem large for what are ostensibly a very similar product (materials and workmanship aside, which I don't believe contribute immediately to the power/torque figures, rathermore durability, fit/finish etc).