991.2 C4s turbo problems. Has anyone had this happen??
06-14-2019, 11:14 AM
#1
991.2 C4s turbo problems. Has anyone had this happen??
I have a 2017 991.2 C4s. About 4 weeks ago my check engine light went on, said something about engine controller, I think, but it said ok to drive but get to service center
I brought it to my dealer in NJ. First thing they told me was that the waste gate on both turbos was stuck closed. They ordered 2 turbos and one came in from Atlanta but the other came in a week later from Canada. Then they promissed a completion date a week later but when that happened they told me that the "hoses" to the turbos (both) were leaking. So they said they would have to remove the engine to fix that. Now another week would be needed. At the end of the week they told me that now a part was needed from Germany (they dont or wont say what part but now at least another week will be needed. Has anyone seen turbo failures in 991.2 C4s cars at all? They have had my car for just about a month. I have owned over 10 porsches since 1984 and have never seen anything like this. The service advisor says many of their mechanics have left. 1 month to fix 2 turbos????
I brought it to my dealer in NJ. First thing they told me was that the waste gate on both turbos was stuck closed. They ordered 2 turbos and one came in from Atlanta but the other came in a week later from Canada. Then they promissed a completion date a week later but when that happened they told me that the "hoses" to the turbos (both) were leaking. So they said they would have to remove the engine to fix that. Now another week would be needed. At the end of the week they told me that now a part was needed from Germany (they dont or wont say what part but now at least another week will be needed. Has anyone seen turbo failures in 991.2 C4s cars at all? They have had my car for just about a month. I have owned over 10 porsches since 1984 and have never seen anything like this. The service advisor says many of their mechanics have left. 1 month to fix 2 turbos????
06-14-2019, 12:33 PM
#2
Sounds a little like a misdiagnosis from the start.
They plug car into the PIWIS and get codes that boost targets not achieved. Determined that they waste gates were stuck close because they were not opening.
Order two new turbos (because they are unable to just order the turbine housings).
Replace both turbos and the waste gates are still not opening.
At that point they probably determined that the boost signal to waste gate (vacuum line) is bad, so they order new ones.
While performing that repair, they more than likely broke a clip or a sensor and had to order that to replace it, or the boost signal lines were never bad and it may have been the boost control solenoid or a simple T-junction.
More than likely there was never anything wrong with the turbos to begin with.
I had something similar happen before with our Audi S4. From the first week of ownership the MIL would come on with a code that boost target with the supercharger could not be reached. First thing they did was assume it was a bad supercharger so they replaced it. Cleared the cars bill of health and gave it back. Two hours later the same MIL pops back up, dealer takes car back into service and orders a second supercharger, replaces it and gives car back, dealer assumes car is fixed and gives back. MIL comes back on. Car goes back, dealer decides to replace the engine control module, gives car back, the MIL comes back on. Car goes back. Mechanics from Germany come to diagnose and repair the car. They give it a thorough inspection and determine that the vacuum line to the supercharger had a micro-crack in it and replace all of the engine vacuum lines. Give car back, MIL coms back on, car goes back to dealer. Mechanics from Germany suspect foul play on our part so they super glue all of the vacuum lines to ensure that nobody is removing them. MIL comes back on, car goes back. Dealer throws in towel and does a courtesy buy back to avoid a CA lemon law case. Car gets returned to dealer and they now own it. A couple of weeks later, the service manager calls and has some pretty exciting news, they found out what was wrong with the car. Never was really anything close to the engine. A factory defect when installing the fuel pump caused the gasket to be pinched and there was a slight leak in the tank. The only reason they found it was somebody was going to use the car and they over filled it with fuel, which caused the fuel to leak out of the top of the tank where the gasket was pinched and there was a super strong smell of gas. Dealer replaced the fuel pump gasket and no more MIL.
They plug car into the PIWIS and get codes that boost targets not achieved. Determined that they waste gates were stuck close because they were not opening.
Order two new turbos (because they are unable to just order the turbine housings).
Replace both turbos and the waste gates are still not opening.
At that point they probably determined that the boost signal to waste gate (vacuum line) is bad, so they order new ones.
While performing that repair, they more than likely broke a clip or a sensor and had to order that to replace it, or the boost signal lines were never bad and it may have been the boost control solenoid or a simple T-junction.
More than likely there was never anything wrong with the turbos to begin with.
I had something similar happen before with our Audi S4. From the first week of ownership the MIL would come on with a code that boost target with the supercharger could not be reached. First thing they did was assume it was a bad supercharger so they replaced it. Cleared the cars bill of health and gave it back. Two hours later the same MIL pops back up, dealer takes car back into service and orders a second supercharger, replaces it and gives car back, dealer assumes car is fixed and gives back. MIL comes back on. Car goes back, dealer decides to replace the engine control module, gives car back, the MIL comes back on. Car goes back. Mechanics from Germany come to diagnose and repair the car. They give it a thorough inspection and determine that the vacuum line to the supercharger had a micro-crack in it and replace all of the engine vacuum lines. Give car back, MIL coms back on, car goes back to dealer. Mechanics from Germany suspect foul play on our part so they super glue all of the vacuum lines to ensure that nobody is removing them. MIL comes back on, car goes back. Dealer throws in towel and does a courtesy buy back to avoid a CA lemon law case. Car gets returned to dealer and they now own it. A couple of weeks later, the service manager calls and has some pretty exciting news, they found out what was wrong with the car. Never was really anything close to the engine. A factory defect when installing the fuel pump caused the gasket to be pinched and there was a slight leak in the tank. The only reason they found it was somebody was going to use the car and they over filled it with fuel, which caused the fuel to leak out of the top of the tank where the gasket was pinched and there was a super strong smell of gas. Dealer replaced the fuel pump gasket and no more MIL.
Last edited by Cheshi143; 06-14-2019 at 12:50 PM.
06-14-2019, 01:07 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Good grief! Thanks for the details. So much for the competence of the dealer's technicians.
BTW, to the OP, my 991.2 C4S is about 2 years old now with no turbo issues.
BTW, to the OP, my 991.2 C4S is about 2 years old now with no turbo issues.
06-14-2019, 01:21 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
You'd think that with a sophisticated modern engine management system, the ability to identify and diagnose problems would be improved. But the engine is still chock full of mechanical elements that are not, and can't be, monitored by the engine management system. I. E. there's no such thing as a "hose leak" sensor.
Nevertheless, the service techs come to rely on these computerized diagnoses and become mindless parts changers. The best techs definitely look at the error codes, but combine that input with their knowledge of the engine and overall service experience, to identify and fix problems. Such technicians are not that common.
Nevertheless, the service techs come to rely on these computerized diagnoses and become mindless parts changers. The best techs definitely look at the error codes, but combine that input with their knowledge of the engine and overall service experience, to identify and fix problems. Such technicians are not that common.
06-14-2019, 01:58 PM
#6
Former Vendor
We have not seen any turbo failure in the 991.2 cars. I wonder why they would replace turbochargers in this case.. Sounds like possible misdiagnosis but hard to determine without all the facts.. Keep us posted. Good luck.
06-14-2019, 02:29 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
I had something similar happen before with our Audi S4. From the first week of ownership the MIL would come on with a code that boost target with the supercharger could not be reached. First thing they did was assume it was a bad supercharger so they replaced it. Cleared the cars bill of health and gave it back. Two hours later the same MIL pops back up, dealer takes car back into service and orders a second supercharger, replaces it and gives car back, dealer assumes car is fixed and gives back. MIL comes back on. Car goes back, dealer decides to replace the engine control module, gives car back, the MIL comes back on. Car goes back. Mechanics from Germany come to diagnose and repair the car. They give it a thorough inspection and determine that the vacuum line to the supercharger had a micro-crack in it and replace all of the engine vacuum lines. Give car back, MIL coms back on, car goes back to dealer. Mechanics from Germany suspect foul play on our part so they super glue all of the vacuum lines to ensure that nobody is removing them. MIL comes back on, car goes back. Dealer throws in towel and does a courtesy buy back to avoid a CA lemon law case. Car gets returned to dealer and they now own it. A couple of weeks later, the service manager calls and has some pretty exciting news, they found out what was wrong with the car. Never was really anything close to the engine. A factory defect when installing the fuel pump caused the gasket to be pinched and there was a slight leak in the tank. The only reason they found it was somebody was going to use the car and they over filled it with fuel, which caused the fuel to leak out of the top of the tank where the gasket was pinched and there was a super strong smell of gas. Dealer replaced the fuel pump gasket and no more MIL.
I should amend my previous comment. While I don't have any issues with the turbos (no messages or loss of power) the boost gauge rarely shows any boost. It used to show up to 12 psi in sport but now nothing. Maybe 4-5 psi but usually nothing. I haven't bothered with it becasue the car drives fine. At my next service in July, I will ask the dealer.
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06-14-2019, 05:17 PM
#8
Things arent going well My dealer in northern Jersey probably did rip the vaccum hose when they removed the turbo chargers. They have already had the car for 3 weeks going on 4 and they tell me that Germany is not being very cooperative in sending replacement hoses. So I pay 1800 dollars a month for a car that I cannot drive and there is no promise for a date when a part will be sent. I asked the dealership to have the owner call Germany and demand a part but they refuse to do that. And I am an owner who has owned over 15 new porsches since 1984. I am stuck with a car that has been apparently damaged by service and I am left begging them to be responsible. No promise that a new part will be shipped. They tell me to call back in a week. And this is Porsche service???
06-14-2019, 05:28 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Things arent going well My dealer in northern Jersey probably did rip the vaccum hose when they removed the turbo chargers. They have already had the car for 3 weeks going on 4 and they tell me that Germany is not being very cooperative in sending replacement hoses. So I pay 1800 dollars a month for a car that I cannot drive and there is no promise for a date when a part will be sent. I asked the dealership to have the owner call Germany and demand a part but they refuse to do that. And I am an owner who has owned over 15 new porsches since 1984. I am stuck with a car that has been apparently damaged by service and I am left begging them to be responsible. No promise that a new part will be shipped. They tell me to call back in a week. And this is Porsche service???
06-14-2019, 06:47 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
@docjackson1 have you been a customer for long with these clowns? After 18 cars you would think they would bend over backwards for you.
And agree with above, if AutoNation is the owner, change the title and start blogging about the crappy service from AutoNation owned dealerships.
And agree with above, if AutoNation is the owner, change the title and start blogging about the crappy service from AutoNation owned dealerships.
06-14-2019, 08:42 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Nevertheless, the service techs come to rely on these computerized diagnoses and become mindless parts changers. The best techs definitely look at the error codes, but combine that input with their knowledge of the engine and overall service experience, to identify and fix problems. Such technicians are not that common.
OP, if you bought the car new, check local lemon laws. Most kick in if the car has been off the road more than 30 days for the same issue.
06-14-2019, 11:11 PM
#13
I dont think that they are owned by autonation. This is a family owned dealership with multiple brands in extreme northern Jersey. They used to have a good service department but they told me they are missing half of their techs due to people leaving. I used to deal with a very good service writer. She was there for 20 years but she is now gone. I had a long conversation with a sales manager ( no one from service wanted to talk) who told me that they called Germany, and Germany is not willing as of now to send them the vacuum hoses. I just dont get it. The dealership breaks the vacuum hoses and the message to me is " Hey, we tried, what do you want us to do " it is a bad situation to be in. You are stuck paying 1800 a month for the lease, and the dealership rips the hoses when they remove the turbos and then they give you attitude saying " you are being unreasonable, we are trying. Just keep on paying your lease. Ir is the beginning of 4 weeks and absolutely no date when I can expect the part to arrive from Germany. I just dont know what to do to get my car back on the road
06-14-2019, 11:25 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Find it hard to understand how a legitimate dealer can do this to a customer whose car is under warranty, Makes no sense to me.
06-14-2019, 11:29 PM
#15
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A couple of things to consider:
The codes thrown and read by PIWIS are only as good as the embedded software code. That code is only as good as the imaginations of the Porsche employees/contractors/suppliers writing the software requirements. Humans are notoriously bad at prognosticating how failures will manifest. Teams of humans,. in my experience, as a matter of course, positively hate writing requirement and then code for logging errors. They like that less than writing test code. Thus, the codes read by PIWIS can be wild goose chases.
PCNA will only reimburse a dealer for warranty work if it is approved. How does work get approved? You guessed it: based upon PIWIS codes and fault trees. Only after the fault tree has be exhaustively covered are experienced 'authorized' brains allowed to consider the problem irrespective of 'the book.' And those 'authorized' brains are PCNA employees.
So, no matter how smart or motivated a Dealer Tech is, they can only do, under a warranty situation, what PCNA approves.
The codes thrown and read by PIWIS are only as good as the embedded software code. That code is only as good as the imaginations of the Porsche employees/contractors/suppliers writing the software requirements. Humans are notoriously bad at prognosticating how failures will manifest. Teams of humans,. in my experience, as a matter of course, positively hate writing requirement and then code for logging errors. They like that less than writing test code. Thus, the codes read by PIWIS can be wild goose chases.
PCNA will only reimburse a dealer for warranty work if it is approved. How does work get approved? You guessed it: based upon PIWIS codes and fault trees. Only after the fault tree has be exhaustively covered are experienced 'authorized' brains allowed to consider the problem irrespective of 'the book.' And those 'authorized' brains are PCNA employees.
So, no matter how smart or motivated a Dealer Tech is, they can only do, under a warranty situation, what PCNA approves.