marked19

I've been shopping for my first 911 for a while now, and most of the time there are minimal service records available. Most cars have had multiple owners and service records aren't passed along or kept by the owners, many service centers don't enter what they did into CarFax, and if the 911 is at a dealer, especially a non-Porsche dealer, they don't seem to have much in the way of records. Some of the cars I've looked at seem very nice and in good condition, but without service records how would I evaluate them? Can a thorough PPI make up for that, or do you all feel that service records are needed to really understand the condition of the car and likely future service needs?

Thanks for your insights!

Fined

It depends on the car itself. I'd recommend a thorough PPI for any 911 purchase. As far as the requirement for service records.. if its at a dealer there isn't always a lot you can do. You can do some detective work and find out what Porsche dealership the car was worked on at and call them to ask about what work that was done. Depending on the dealer it may be more or less difficult to get answers. I've sometimes had to assure the dealership I don't require a paper copy and just want them to verbally tell me what work was done and when. These days they can get a bit cagey about "privacy issues" when it comes to telling you anything about previous work on the car.

For a lower mileage car that appears in excellent condition I might worry less (definite PPI though!).. for a higher mileage car with more owners or a car that isn't pristine it would depend on how special the car is, like how bad do I want it to let it go with just a thorough PPI and thats it. If its a black base Carrera with few options and high miles.. I'm sure I could find one with the right records and good PPI results. If its a flawless rare color Targa with low miles.. I might just have to get the PPI done and buy it because of few options on finding another one.

linderpat

In an ideal world, both are very important. Be aware that even with a file full of service records, critical records of major issues can be left out to create a more favorable picture. I'd say a good ppi trumps a file full of service records. Service records add value to the car however. For my 78 928, I have records going back to nearly new and are very comprehensive. For my 997, I likewise have most of the records back to nearly new. I personally know the service manager at the dealer where I bought the car, and he printed everything off for me. I also know the prior owner. I was able to get almost everything. I did not do a ppi (other than my own cursory exam), but because I know the folks who were selling the car, and their service staff, I was very comfortable in the transaction without an independent ppi. I have bought enough "hobby" cars now to know when I really need a ppi, and when I don't. In any case, I have driven my 997 a lot since I bought it and it has been fine (although I had a recent amount of work done to repair a leaking water pump add the IMS retro fit fix, and some other WYAIT work - but this is normal stuff that should be expected when owning these or any car).

marked19

Thanks for you input - that's helpful. I'll definitely get a PPI on any 911 that I want to purchase, I'm just trying to decide how much I should let lack of service records impact my decision.

Balr14

My car came with the maintenance log book showing what was done at each service interval through 40k miles and what dealer did it. I purchased the car with 52K miles, well before it was due for 60K maintenance. So, it looks like it has pretty complete documentation, but you can never tell what was done that wasn't logged. For example, it had a full FabSpeed intake and exhaust, that was noted in the PPI. When I asked the dealer about it, they couldn't tell me who did it. For what that costs, I would have made sure to log it. But, no mention of it.

Just as a side note, since I have had it, I have replaced the AOS, done the 60K service including the PDK, bought a new ECU tuner and had a tune done. I have logged everything. I had the car appraised because I have been thinking of trading it in. The service log and all the work I had done made absolutely no difference to appraised value.

groovy dude

I wouldn't be too concerned if it's a 997.1 with a PPI, unless it has mega miles. You're going to have some regular maintenance costs no matter what. Having the service records will help with the resale down the road though. The big thing to keep in mind is the IMS. You're probably hip to this by now, but most of these cars have the double-row version which is more robust (very few actual documented failures), but it's buried in the engine case and can't really be upgraded given the cost of getting to it. I looked for over a year to find a low mileage, single-row IMS 997 (2005 Carrera) so I could have it upgraded and never have to worry about it (mine had minimal records but a great seller and history and a clean PPI). If you're really concerned have them cut open the oil filter with the PPI (you'll have to pay more), and I've even seen people paying extra for the cylinders getting scoped (for scoring). If it's a 997.2 then I wouldn't worry either way, (unless the car has a sketchy ownership history) it will be a great vehicle.

gumanow

I too am looking for my first 911 and considering a 997 with the same questions. Thanks for posting this.

So the 05 C2 997.1 has a single row IMS and is easy enough to upgrade? Is it the M96 engine and the later 997 c2 has the M97? Is that how I read this? I'm currently looking at a 05 C2 and if I can upgrade the IMS easier than say a 08 c2, then I'm more inclined to go that way.

Am I reading this correclty?

Thanks,
Gary

Jaskfri

3 years ago I bought a 2006 C2S cab with 27k mile and zero service records.It has the larger IMS bearing which has avery, very low fail rate.
It had gone through a wholesale auction and wound up at an indy Porsche race shop that took it in trade toward a GT3.. I had a PPI done by the closest P dealer and there were no issues. They described the car as perfect. The PPI was not that thorough based on what I now know should be checked.
The car now has 60k miles. It has only needed routine maintenance(incl brakes, clutch, water pump) and it's great. Sometimes you have to roll the dice.

Petza914

Sorry, but this isn't correct info ... All 997s have a single row bearing. The later one is larger that makes it more robust.

Early 996s (97-99) had the double row bearing. Later 996s (02-04) and the early 05s had a single row bearing. 99-01 996 cars could have either the small single or small double). Mid 05 and later 997 cars had a larger single row bearing but any 05-06 needs to be visually verified.

groovy dude

Porsche switched to the unserviceable larger (I thought double-row but I stand corrected) bearings around February of '05. If you search this topic on Google, you'll find that there's an engine number (M96) that people report being the turnaround point, all engines with lower numbers have the smaller single-row, all with higher have the larger. The build date for the change over was somewhere around February, but the engine number is a more accurate determinant. There are some who think that even that can be inaccurate, but it's the best thing to go on short of pulling the trans. The car I bought was about 100 units lower than the turnaround number, and it did indeed have a smaller single-row IMS (the upgrade with new clutch cost me about $3K). This is only true for the 3.6 engines, I believe all 3.8s have the larger IMS.

I think it's well documented that over 95% (or thereabouts) of all the larger baring engines have had no problems. However, I think it's likely that this number will rise as the mileage piles up on these cars. Of course, if you get 150,000 miles on your engine and then the bearing fails, it's not a huge loss as you were due for a rebuild anyway. My feeling is that I'd rather have some control over this, according to the company, the LN ceramic bearings report a failure rate of zero so far. But, as I said, I looked for my car for a year. Most of the 997s on the market are dealer cars, and many dealers won't even bother looking up the engine number for you. And then you go back to the whole service records thing which was the original topic of this thread - most dealer cars won't have any service records. At the end of the day, you've just got to figure out what you can live with and move on.

Petza914

groovy,

Here's the engine serial # and IMS bearing info you're looking for.

There are three different serial number types for the three engine variants in our cars - base model M96.05 3.6L engines, S-model M97.01 3.8L engines, and the X51 power kit M97.01S 3.8L engines. All three have slightly different engine serial number formats.

For S-model non-X51 M97.01 engines the serial number is of the format M97/0168YXXXXX. The last 8 digits matter and are the following format:
685XXXXX = M97 for MY05
686XXXXX = M97 for MY06
687XXXXX = M97 for MY07

So the first two digits are 68, followed by the year digit, followed by a five digit serial number. But the full serial is M97/0168YXXXXX.

For X51 engines I believe the format is M97/01S68YXXXXX (added 'S' between 01 and 68).

3.6L base engines have a similar format M96/0569YXXXXX (not positive on the 05, can someone check?).

With replacement engines there is an 'AT' in front of the final eight digits. So a S-model 3.8L factory replacement engine the format would look like M97/01AT68YXXXXX.


For 3.8L motors, up to M97/01 68509790 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.

For 3.6L motors, if the engine s/n is M96/05 69507476 and up it has the larger bearing.

cosm3os

You want both. A car with good maintenance history tells you more than what work was done. It tells you how much the PO(s) cared. That level of care extends to every aspect of the ownership--maintenance, driving habits, cleanliness, etc. A PPI just verifies the current condition (a snapshot if you will) and give you a list of things that need attention. If you have the good owner/history, the PPI will probably not show anything.

groovzilla

As a long time Porsche owner and buyer of a new to me P-Car every year or 2, I have a lot of experience on the subject.
**Back in the aircooled days yes you would find cars with stacks of records over 30 year period of ownership but this is a rare event these days.

Over the past 6 years I have purchased 3 996 C4S's and 2 997's all from California and I live in Seattle.
Whenever I buy a car, I try and find one owned by a RL member - Of course this always isn't the case and not all RL members have many service records for their cars.

Of the 3 996's I purchased only 1 had service records - My 2005 997S had some records and my current 2007 C4S had some records and regular service history on Carfax from 2011-2018.

Fear not! ---->Many Porsche owners don't keep service records or don't keep their car long enough to amass records, especially 996/997 cars. Many service records get lost in moving/etc - I've experienced all of these scenario's.

I NEVER purchase a car from a dealer - Dealer cars are a crap shoot most purchased from auctions with absolutely no history and most auction cars have issues.
When I purchase a car from Private seller I go into great detail with questions about any and all model related issues, get a good idea what type of owner the car has and get a good sense of how car has been treated.
I always PPI a car unless the seller has had a recent PPI within the past year.
Earlier 2005 S cars with bore scoring/oil consumption issues need to be addressed - Fortunately for me both my 2005 997S and current 2007 C4S were owned by RL members who were honest and forthright.
My 2005 997S did burn oil at approx 1 qt every 800 miles which is well within spec and close to what the seller told me - I drove that car back from Houston Tx. and oil consumption was a bit less than stated.
I sold car to RL member last year and of course related all oil consumption information.

**When I had PPI done to my current 2007 997 C4S this past June 2018, Porsche Burlingame in South San Francisco would not do Bore Scope Inspection----> So I relied on the RL member seller who was honest and told me he had added 1/2 quart of oil in 2000 miles of driving.
I drove the car home with my wife from SF and car burned 1/4 quart in 1400 miles of driving which was less than seller stated.
Purchasing form RL member is really the way to go if possible - I try and find cars listed on RL or similar Forums where people tend to be honest about what they are selling.

rap

nick2413

I'd take PPI over maintenance history, Porsche CPO even better. Research a place for PPI by asking for recs from RL members in your particular area (or wherever vehicle is located).