Question from a person new to Porsche
10-11-2018, 12:41 AM
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Question from a person new to Porsche
My current Mercedes lease is running out, so I decided last week I'd get either a Cayman or a Jaguar F-Type. I went to both Porsche and Jaguar dealers today and did test drives. The Porsche salesman spent about 2.5 hours with me, filling me in on all this info about the brand I had no idea about. My notes are below and I was hoping since there are so many experts here, if anyone gets a chance to review them, if they could let me know if what I was told checks out?
-Porsche salesman says Jaguars depreciate much worse than Porsches. They still have electronics problems, so people lease them, then don't buy them out at the end cause they don't want to stay in Jaguar after their bad experience, so dealers then have to discount them further to sell them used. This is also why you can get much better leases on Jaguars than Porsches
-Porsches do not lease well; it's better to own
-Macans, Cayennes, and base Caymans depreciate like normal cars. Base 911s depreciate better than normal cars. Special editions 911s can actually appreciate, allowing you to basically drive the car for free.
-While we were walking the lot, a guy pulled up in a Boxster Spyder 2011. My salesman said that car is still worth MSRP even after all these years.
-In terms of value and investment, salesman recommended not buying new Cayman or 911 like my original plan was. He said if you only want to drive the car for 2 years and then get rid of it, buy a preowned Cayman or 911. If you intend to hold for 5 years or more, he had 3 recommendations:
-1) Buy a Carrera T (dealer had 5 on the lot all for around $130k) and if you drive it normally, it will dip in value for the first 2 or so years. If after 2 years you put it in your garage and don't drive it much by year 5 it'll be back around MSRP. Said Porsche is only making them for 2018 and 2019, and while they haven't released the numbers, it will be less than a 1000 production run. The T hasn't been built since 1960s so this car is likely to be a collectors item.
-2) Buy a 2012 911 997 Turbo S with 14k miles which he had on the lot for $115k. MSRP was $165k. He said the value was bottoming out now, but going forward the car was going to appreciate
-3) Buy a 2018 911 991 GT3 for $203k with 8k miles with some sort of special green paint job. He said, this thing was a sure bet. He said it will never dip below MSRP.
-He said if you have the money, option 3 is the surest bet, followed by 2, then 1.
-If I don't want to spend that kind of money, then he recommended a CPO 2016 911 991 with 3.4l engine and premium package with 5k miles for $85k
-The big risk factor on the above "investment" cars is that if you ever get in an accident, there goes all your collector premium, as collectors discount cars with accident histories by huge amounts.
-One way to mitigate this risk is the lease, drive the car as your daily, if you get in an accident, give the car back at term end, if not, then buy out the car, and wait for appreciation. He didn't necessarily recommend this, but said it's something some people do.
So after all this my head was spinning, as I had no idea how complex and involved the Porsche market is. I like getting good value though, so I'm willing to put some time into understanding this market, though I'm sure it takes years to really know it. After test driving the Jaguar F-Type, while I think it's a nice looking car, the Porsche drives, sounds, and looks better (more classic and refined), so I'm inclined to go with Porsche assuming I can find a good deal. My thoughts as of now, which are easily subject to change based on any input from the experts here is either do a 2 or 3 year old preowned Cayman or 911 or the Carrera T. Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated!
-Porsche salesman says Jaguars depreciate much worse than Porsches. They still have electronics problems, so people lease them, then don't buy them out at the end cause they don't want to stay in Jaguar after their bad experience, so dealers then have to discount them further to sell them used. This is also why you can get much better leases on Jaguars than Porsches
-Porsches do not lease well; it's better to own
-Macans, Cayennes, and base Caymans depreciate like normal cars. Base 911s depreciate better than normal cars. Special editions 911s can actually appreciate, allowing you to basically drive the car for free.
-While we were walking the lot, a guy pulled up in a Boxster Spyder 2011. My salesman said that car is still worth MSRP even after all these years.
-In terms of value and investment, salesman recommended not buying new Cayman or 911 like my original plan was. He said if you only want to drive the car for 2 years and then get rid of it, buy a preowned Cayman or 911. If you intend to hold for 5 years or more, he had 3 recommendations:
-1) Buy a Carrera T (dealer had 5 on the lot all for around $130k) and if you drive it normally, it will dip in value for the first 2 or so years. If after 2 years you put it in your garage and don't drive it much by year 5 it'll be back around MSRP. Said Porsche is only making them for 2018 and 2019, and while they haven't released the numbers, it will be less than a 1000 production run. The T hasn't been built since 1960s so this car is likely to be a collectors item.
-2) Buy a 2012 911 997 Turbo S with 14k miles which he had on the lot for $115k. MSRP was $165k. He said the value was bottoming out now, but going forward the car was going to appreciate
-3) Buy a 2018 911 991 GT3 for $203k with 8k miles with some sort of special green paint job. He said, this thing was a sure bet. He said it will never dip below MSRP.
-He said if you have the money, option 3 is the surest bet, followed by 2, then 1.
-If I don't want to spend that kind of money, then he recommended a CPO 2016 911 991 with 3.4l engine and premium package with 5k miles for $85k
-The big risk factor on the above "investment" cars is that if you ever get in an accident, there goes all your collector premium, as collectors discount cars with accident histories by huge amounts.
-One way to mitigate this risk is the lease, drive the car as your daily, if you get in an accident, give the car back at term end, if not, then buy out the car, and wait for appreciation. He didn't necessarily recommend this, but said it's something some people do.
So after all this my head was spinning, as I had no idea how complex and involved the Porsche market is. I like getting good value though, so I'm willing to put some time into understanding this market, though I'm sure it takes years to really know it. After test driving the Jaguar F-Type, while I think it's a nice looking car, the Porsche drives, sounds, and looks better (more classic and refined), so I'm inclined to go with Porsche assuming I can find a good deal. My thoughts as of now, which are easily subject to change based on any input from the experts here is either do a 2 or 3 year old preowned Cayman or 911 or the Carrera T. Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated!
10-11-2018, 12:44 AM
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Before you go into the details about price, depreciation, new, used, CPO, etc., ask yourself this question first.
"What is my budget for my first Porsche?"
Once you have that answer, the questions that you need to ask and answer will be much much more narrow.
"What is my budget for my first Porsche?"
Once you have that answer, the questions that you need to ask and answer will be much much more narrow.
10-11-2018, 12:48 AM
#3
Most of what he said is true.. Not sure on points labeled as 1 2 and 3. The GT3 will not hold above 200k. The 2012 turbo will continue to depreciate. The 992 confirmed to have a T in it's lineup. It will not sell back at MSRP.
Jaguar? *GAG*PUKE*
Jaguar? *GAG*PUKE*
10-11-2018, 12:50 AM
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My budget allows all the options I listed in my post, but given that I know nothing about the Porsche market, my gut says shelling out $200k for a first time stab at an "investment" car doesn't seem wise.
10-11-2018, 12:53 AM
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Haha, Jaguar's aren't well liked around these parts? Well, your reply makes my decision much easier : ) I was only interested in points 1, 2, and 3 cause they were pitched as investments, but if they'll depreciate just the same, I'd be just as happy in a preowned base Cayman or base 911. I will never be a super car guy. I like Porsches for the way they look aesthetically and the way they drive, but I don't need super fast, or care about things like carbon fiber seats, special steering wheels, special paint, spoilers, trim, etc. To be honest, I prefer the looks of the base cars to any of the super expensive GT models with all the bells and whistles. I know I'm weird : )
10-11-2018, 01:14 AM
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SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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Let me guess the dealer: the Porsche exchange?
A T will never get back to MSRP, they will continue to build them in 992.
A 2012 turbo S still has about $70k in depreciation.
The green GT3 with “8000” miles for $208k was run hard and in snow and in dirt. Not that makes it a bad car, but it’s not a no lose proposition. A paint to sample GT3 from 2014/5 is now $140k or so, so figure you will be down $60k in three years.
A 2011 boxster spyder is not an MSRP car.
Buy a cayman/boxster, beat them up to 9-10% off and that is the least depreciation. Better yet, get a slightly used one.
A T will never get back to MSRP, they will continue to build them in 992.
A 2012 turbo S still has about $70k in depreciation.
The green GT3 with “8000” miles for $208k was run hard and in snow and in dirt. Not that makes it a bad car, but it’s not a no lose proposition. A paint to sample GT3 from 2014/5 is now $140k or so, so figure you will be down $60k in three years.
A 2011 boxster spyder is not an MSRP car.
Buy a cayman/boxster, beat them up to 9-10% off and that is the least depreciation. Better yet, get a slightly used one.
10-11-2018, 01:17 AM
#7
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buy the car you would like to drive regularly. Don't worry about investment. But the car to drive and have fun. Use stocks, real estate for investment.
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10-11-2018, 01:30 AM
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Let me guess the dealer: the Porsche exchange?
A T will never get back to MSRP, they will continue to build them in 992.
A 2012 turbo S still has about $70k in depreciation.
The green GT3 with “8000” miles for $208k was run hard and in snow and in dirt. Not that makes it a bad car, but it’s not a no lose proposition. A paint to sample GT3 from 2014/5 is now $140k or so, so figure you will be down $60k in three years.
A 2011 boxster spyder is not an MSRP car.
Buy a cayman/boxster, beat them up to 9-10% off and that is the least depreciation. Better yet, get a slightly used one.
A T will never get back to MSRP, they will continue to build them in 992.
A 2012 turbo S still has about $70k in depreciation.
The green GT3 with “8000” miles for $208k was run hard and in snow and in dirt. Not that makes it a bad car, but it’s not a no lose proposition. A paint to sample GT3 from 2014/5 is now $140k or so, so figure you will be down $60k in three years.
A 2011 boxster spyder is not an MSRP car.
Buy a cayman/boxster, beat them up to 9-10% off and that is the least depreciation. Better yet, get a slightly used one.
Anyway, great replies so far. Super helpful and direct, and makes my life much easier not having to worry about "investing" in a car.
So I like the Cayman but only the latest 718 refresh, so for best value, I'd assume I should go for a CPO 2017 model year instead of 2018? As for 911, I imagine model year 2015, 2016 would be best value in terms of the depreciation curve. If I'm only going to keep the car 2 or 3 years and then sell, since 911s have better depreciation curves, might I end up losing the same amount whether I go with a 2017 Cayman or a 2015/2016 911, in which case I should just buy a used 911?
10-11-2018, 01:39 AM
#9
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Let me guess the dealer: the Porsche exchange?
A T will never get back to MSRP, they will continue to build them in 992.
A 2012 turbo S still has about $70k in depreciation.
The green GT3 with “8000” miles for $208k was run hard and in snow and in dirt. Not that makes it a bad car, but it’s not a no lose proposition. A paint to sample GT3 from 2014/5 is now $140k or so, so figure you will be down $60k in three years.
A 2011 boxster spyder is not an MSRP car.
Buy a cayman/boxster, beat them up to 9-10% off and that is the least depreciation. Better yet, get a slightly used one.
A T will never get back to MSRP, they will continue to build them in 992.
A 2012 turbo S still has about $70k in depreciation.
The green GT3 with “8000” miles for $208k was run hard and in snow and in dirt. Not that makes it a bad car, but it’s not a no lose proposition. A paint to sample GT3 from 2014/5 is now $140k or so, so figure you will be down $60k in three years.
A 2011 boxster spyder is not an MSRP car.
Buy a cayman/boxster, beat them up to 9-10% off and that is the least depreciation. Better yet, get a slightly used one.
you should buy a car for pleasure.......not investment (and maybe the rate of depreciation to be a factor to be consider)
hope that helps
10-11-2018, 01:40 AM
#10
Very few people get the opportunity to own a car that appreciates. Cars that appreciate are also worth more if you don't drive them. Do you want a car you can't drive?
If a dealer tried to sell me on a car appreciating, I would walk out or ask for a different sales person. Cars depreciate. Measure the value of the car by how many times you get to fill the tank. Drive it, enjoy it.
If a dealer tried to sell me on a car appreciating, I would walk out or ask for a different sales person. Cars depreciate. Measure the value of the car by how many times you get to fill the tank. Drive it, enjoy it.
10-11-2018, 01:41 AM
#11
+1 on both of those. There are P-cars that will retain value...but very rarely..... I understand we all want the least amount of depreciation.......but the truth is cars are a depreciating asset (with very few exceptions)
you should buy a car for pleasure.......not investment (and maybe the rate of depreciation to be a factor to be consider)
hope that helps
you should buy a car for pleasure.......not investment (and maybe the rate of depreciation to be a factor to be consider)
hope that helps
10-11-2018, 01:58 AM
#12
Like any car, used is a better value as depreciation is largest in the early days. However Porsche does a GREAT job at allowing owners to customize their cars through the order process and getting a used car that is exactly what you want is slim.
If you are fussy about paint, interior and all those things, factory order is the way to go.
All cars will depreciate, those that don’t are rare and don’t get driven. If you want to appreciate the car and actually drive it, I would suggest not worrying about it as an “investment”. For me my 911 payoff is the joy on my face when I drive it....and I have zero concern about “saving” it for the next buyer.
That being said, the driving dynamic is different between the Cayman, and different 911 variants. If suggest you look for the car that works best for your needs and joy levels and go from there.
My quick advice, the 911 is the classic and icon. The caymans are nice but they aren’t 911s and not the cars most of us dreamt about as kids. There are no bad 911s, just different variants and flavours that suit your tastes. I’m picky about what I get, so I ordered new from the factory to get exactly what I wanted.....and the joy I get every time I crank the key tells me the price is more than worth it for me.
If you are fussy about paint, interior and all those things, factory order is the way to go.
All cars will depreciate, those that don’t are rare and don’t get driven. If you want to appreciate the car and actually drive it, I would suggest not worrying about it as an “investment”. For me my 911 payoff is the joy on my face when I drive it....and I have zero concern about “saving” it for the next buyer.
That being said, the driving dynamic is different between the Cayman, and different 911 variants. If suggest you look for the car that works best for your needs and joy levels and go from there.
My quick advice, the 911 is the classic and icon. The caymans are nice but they aren’t 911s and not the cars most of us dreamt about as kids. There are no bad 911s, just different variants and flavours that suit your tastes. I’m picky about what I get, so I ordered new from the factory to get exactly what I wanted.....and the joy I get every time I crank the key tells me the price is more than worth it for me.
10-11-2018, 02:00 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Wow, my head would be spinning, too.
Take your time.
Generally speaking, cars depreciate.
Your best value will be found in a CPO car.
Fair valuation of the cars can be tricky given the wide range of options.
Folks on this forum can help (check out the sticky Hot For Sale (HFS) thread).
Porsche's lease terms aren't very competitive (i.e. kind of pricey) compared to mainstream automakers.
Avoid jumping into appreciation/depreciation/speculation games on "special" models until you are very familiar with Porsche's complex lineup of vehicles.
Take your time.
Generally speaking, cars depreciate.
Your best value will be found in a CPO car.
Fair valuation of the cars can be tricky given the wide range of options.
Folks on this forum can help (check out the sticky Hot For Sale (HFS) thread).
Porsche's lease terms aren't very competitive (i.e. kind of pricey) compared to mainstream automakers.
Avoid jumping into appreciation/depreciation/speculation games on "special" models until you are very familiar with Porsche's complex lineup of vehicles.
10-11-2018, 02:00 AM
#14
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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The dealer was Champion Porsche in Florida. Wow, so somehow you know the exact green GT3 I'm talking about? Is that cause there's only one?
Anyway, great replies so far. Super helpful and direct, and makes my life much easier not having to worry about "investing" in a car.
So I like the Cayman but only the latest 718 refresh, so for best value, I'd assume I should go for a CPO 2017 model year instead of 2018? As for 911, I imagine model year 2015, 2016 would be best value in terms of the depreciation curve. If I'm only going to keep the car 2 or 3 years and then sell, since 911s have better depreciation curves, might I end up losing the same amount whether I go with a 2017 Cayman or a 2015/2016 911, in which case I should just buy a used 911?
Anyway, great replies so far. Super helpful and direct, and makes my life much easier not having to worry about "investing" in a car.
So I like the Cayman but only the latest 718 refresh, so for best value, I'd assume I should go for a CPO 2017 model year instead of 2018? As for 911, I imagine model year 2015, 2016 would be best value in terms of the depreciation curve. If I'm only going to keep the car 2 or 3 years and then sell, since 911s have better depreciation curves, might I end up losing the same amount whether I go with a 2017 Cayman or a 2015/2016 911, in which case I should just buy a used 911?
2017 cayman is a 718 and there are some good deals to be had. 2012.5-2016 911 are all pretty similar such that other than age there is not a lot of reason to get a newer one if all you care about is depreciation. One that is older has depreciated more but you end up crossing over with higher maintenance and repair costs. You are going to lose money regardless so just get what you want. I mean I am buying a new GT3 and figure I am lighting $10s of thousands on fire in the first year. On the other end of the spectrum, my 1995 993, I have enjoyed for 18 months and has cost me a service and a few odds and ends I am pretty sure I can sell it for what I paid.
Oh, and used Jags are a great value. I bought one at 5 years old at 75% off MRSP and have enjoyed it for 6 years and it’s probably lost about $10k in value during that time.
10-11-2018, 02:01 AM
#15
Some people get caught up in all the dollars and cents and depreciation, and GT car this and PTS that. Others couldn't care less. You don't have to become an expert on the Porsche market to purchase and enjoy the car.
With that being said, it seems like you should get behind the wheel of some vehicles and see what you like. If you could buy any new Porsche at MSRP and you cared only about deprecation, a GT3 might be the best move, but it's pretty hard edged for most people, and you might not really enjoy it, so better to figure out what you want and like and go from there.
I would set aside the Porsche market aspect of things for the moment, hone in what you're looking for (coupe, convertible, mid engine, rear engine, more of a grand touring car or more of a pure sport car or track day car), and then compare and contrast once you have narrowed it down to a couple models including the market factors if you so choose.
With that being said, it seems like you should get behind the wheel of some vehicles and see what you like. If you could buy any new Porsche at MSRP and you cared only about deprecation, a GT3 might be the best move, but it's pretty hard edged for most people, and you might not really enjoy it, so better to figure out what you want and like and go from there.
I would set aside the Porsche market aspect of things for the moment, hone in what you're looking for (coupe, convertible, mid engine, rear engine, more of a grand touring car or more of a pure sport car or track day car), and then compare and contrast once you have narrowed it down to a couple models including the market factors if you so choose.
