heliolps2

Hello Porsche friends

I like to go to Cars.com , B.A.T, Ebay , Pelican and Rennlist classifieds to try to keep a pulse on the 964 turbo and 964 Carrera market, It seems to me that there are more 964 Turbo 3.6 cars for sale than Turbo 3.3 cars lately..... Why do you think that is ? and there's very few 92, 93 and 94 964 NA cars for sale and fewer 92 964 Turbos. where do you see this going in the next 10 years ?

Helio

peterpullin

tcsracing1

The 964 3.6L is the hot turbo to have given the last of, best of, 964 turbo etc... bigger brakes. Speedlines. etc... "Bad Boys" film status... This is why the price point got carried away beyond the 3.3L

The 3.3L is the same 964 body with a 930 motor that has pollution pump junk on it. It maintains the novel 930 lag/power characteristics which are fun and has ABS, coil over suspenison and tidy interior. A very under appreciated car until the last few years.

3.3 market has really gained strength in the last 5 years. They are indeed rare cars when you consider production numbers which is why you do not see many available.
Only reason why you seem them for sale now is people looking to cash in on the current market. Some cars are very nice, others are tired, over priced and need work.

My 1991 turbo is really exceptional for an old car. It has the classic 911 nose, the classic fender flares extentions that look hotrod, great brakes, smooth tranny, smooth ride, plently of power and daily friendly.
It is bone stock, but feels like it is a hot rodded 964 right out of the box!

If you want to restore/build any hot rod air cooled 911 with this kind of performance and fit/finish, you will spend $150k plus. The 3.3L 964 will give you alot of what a custom hotrod would give you. Therefore it makes a great choice.

I would buy a 2nd one to add my collection if i came across a decent garage find.

Turboslut

Have you noticed the downward trajectory as of late on the 3.3L pricing? Few high mileage examples sub $120k

tcsracing1

People asking too much caused cars to sit.... now prices are more realistic. but still 6 figures.
They are the ideal hot rod. Good car for the money thus they will hold value.

cobalt

It is all in the numbers. The N/A 964's have become quite popular and everyone wants the more desirable later version 1992-1994. The ROW market and US market do vary a bit however in the US there were very few 92-94 C2/C4 coupes imported. In total from 1989-1994 only some 5170+/- coupes both C2/C4 tip and manual were imported. So many were tracked, driven into the ground and sold off for cheap only to be parted out for years. The introduction of the Singer brought a lot of interest and since then they have been on the rise. The problem is everyone wants the 92-94 but only some 1200 +/- were imported and very few remain. (I am omitting the targas (even more rare) and cabs different market). I have followed the US market for a long time and I would guess there are roughly 2000 +/- N/A NB coupes minus the RSA's remaining in the US and only a % of those aren't dogs with fleas. Pricing for these cars aren't lagging that far behind the 3.3L turbos. A decent condition low mile C2 coupe 92-94 will bring over 6 figures. Most who own the good ones aren't selling or what is available is damaged goods or overpriced.

The 3.3L 964T market is another low production car. There were far more 1991's than 1992's imported so that is a good reason for seeing so few 92's. The pricing of the 3.3l places it in a market that is in competition with 993 CS and C4S along with 993TT's. You also have a number of GT3 variants in this price range making it harder to move and keeping pricing down. There were far more of the 3.3LT's than 3.6LT's that were tracked and driven hard. Many were crashed and many converted back from track cars so you need to watch what is for sale.

The 3.6LT is known as the Bad Boys car and has an iconic following. It is the last of the RWD single turbo cars and only 335 imported to the US even World wide production places it relatively high on the most rare air cooled list. It has advantages over the 3.3l but they aren't the reason for higher prices. The 3.6T comes in 2 versions today. Clean well cared for low mile cars which command huge money due to their rarity and the cars you see for sale which are dogs with fleas. Cheap 3.6's are asking $190's needing a lot of TLC to make them good cars and if you want to modify it why not buy a 3.3l for less and spend the extra making it one heck of a great ride. Unfortunately there are probably less than 200 remaining in the US and most of the good remaining 3.6T's are being gobbled up for collections and won't see much driving. The remaining cars for sale are mostly overpriced for what they are just because they are a 3.6T. I have looked at or know the history of a fair number of the cars for sale and I wouldn't pay you a penny for many and the remaining will need a lot of work to make them good cars and the good ones are priced so high that the average mortal can't afford them or would prefer a new GT3RS.

It is hard to say where the market will be in 10 years although I can say it isn't about the model as much as the individual cars. I don't see things dropping unless gasoline engines become outlawed but I can't see the market rising for anything less than the best original condition examples. The rest will be driven and enjoyed hopefully.

white997

I got the itch for an aircooled 911 and drove a few different gens, in all honesty 95% of them were dogs with no power and old suspension/brakes etc. The 964 Turbo stood out by FAR, all the old school character, awesome boost and still a real performer even by todays standards. It would take $60-100k+ to transform another aircooled 911 into 964T performance. I drove the 3.3 and 3.6 back to back and the cars are 95% the same. You can bolt on 993tt brakes, add speedline wheels, add headers/sport cat and you have 3.6 performance with just basic bolt ons. I would much rather have a clean 3.3 than a beat up/neglected/low miles rotted out 3.6. Thats what i did, searched and searched and flew in to look at 4 different 964Ts and found an amazing one 1 state over, 73K miles that showed like a 20K example. Ive looked at a few cars that were asking crazy $$ for neglected low mile examples. Both 3.3 and 3.6 are WAY undervalued still, IMO its a car that goes down in top 10 porsches for under $1M.

bweSteve

Hey Helio & my 964Turbo Brethren,

I agree with everything Cobalt has listed out,... and I will zero-in on one area that he touched on....

I would whole hardheartedly agree with this statement, and as a person who has just purchased a 2010 997.2 GT3, and spent the better part of the last 2 years searching / researching / waiting for that one special GT3 to arrive on the market,... then pounced..... I would ADD that there are a WHOLE LOT of other market pressures that adversely affect each of the other model-car lineups. Just as the influences that Porsche puts into their strategies (purposeful low production #'s for certain high-demand products, and using allocations of them as incentives to the dealerships, etc etc), the buying market will always compare & contrast ALL of their options before buying. As SOON as a car (like our 964 Turbo's, and specifically your '92 3.3L) starts to creep up in price that puts it in the realm of other exotics, they immediately hit that wall. I don't care to collect or drive any other marque' but there are plenty of collectors who will pass on one car because it's price put it in the range of another collectible. It's all about the "investment" to those buyers. ROI.

I don't want this to become a new-car purchase debate, or toss around the merits of ADM's, dealer & broker tactics when it comes to "first-right-of-refusal" on buy backs, .. or even the impact that the Shiraaz sookralli (Champion Porsche) debacle will have on all of this..... you can read all that yourselves over in the 991 sub-forum: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...keting-33.html
UNLESS Porsche decides to either increase their production and make MORE high-demand cars (such as GT cars) available to be bought, or change the way they do allocations, etc,... then things will remain the way they are, and our 964 Turbo's will only ever see a gradual increase (or decrease!!) in value.

Those outside influences DO have an impact. Outside influences will always cause adjustments and corrections for our 964 Turbo's. But my opinion is that those adjustments will be very minimal in the next 5+ years.

So my TAKEAWAY from all of this,... is that I am VERY happy I am a DRIVER kinda guy, and MOST enjoy getting out on the road with my cars. That's where my spice of life is,... not in the collecting or speculating. It is interesting to be sure,... and yes I follow it too. But it does not define me.

I guess that is why I do things like I am doing to my '91 3.3L 964 Turbo now too. I am spending a lot of time & money on that car right now, and it is NOT because I think it will make it more valuable down the road. It is because I want it RELIABLE for my own driving pleasure.

Here's my list of maintenance items I am currently doing to the car:

- New Fan Belt and Tensioner
- Power Steering Belt and seals
- Valve Adjustment
- Speed Sensor Cable (Flywheel)
- Cooling Fan Bearing
- Oil pressure & Oil Temp Senders
- Fuel Filter
- Crankcase Breather Seals
- Oil Thermostat Housing reseal & replace the 4 short attached hoses.
- Turbo Oil Pump Seal
- Rear Axle/Control Arm Bushings (both sides)
- Alignment & 4 corner balance
- Heat Exchanger flex hoses (both sides)
.... my motor mounts were done not that long ago, and are still fine.

Hope to be back together for the next couple months of nice Fall drives!!

=Steve

alhuraimel

In case you're curious of the production numbers of the Turbo variants out there (3.3 vs 3.6)

Here's the attachment

cobalt

??

alhuraimel

Sorry, attachment didn't upload. Editted my original message.

cobalt

Interesting.
Who published these numbers? The info I have says only 817 94 turbo 3.6's which includes 76 flachbau's and 17 package cars.

Metal Guru

The 3.3 and 3.6 turbo engines are virtually identical from an fueling/emissions standpoint.
Both use Bosch K-Jet, air injection and a 3 way catalyst.

bweSteve

With regard to my statement above on production numbers,.... here's some more news...
(..... although to be honest, I have a feeling that the huge increase in 991 911 production #'s, including increases in GT cars,.. will have more an impact on my 997.2 GT3, than it will on my '91 964 Turbo)

.... but it's worth a read anyway...

https://carbuzz.com/news/porsche-sal...market-listing