Next Suspension Mods
08-24-2017, 01:30 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Next Suspension Mods
I wanted to get some recommendations on what you guys think I should improve next with regards to the suspension. My car is a '93 C2 and ride height is about ROW height. Here is what has been done so far:
- KW V3
- H&R sways
- Elephant Racing front control race hardness bushings. Stock rears
- FF transmission mount
- Wevo engine mounts, black pillows
- stock top mounts
The car drives great as is but I'm always yearning for more. I feel everything I do from here on in will only be an incremental improvement so not sure it will be worth it. I do feel that the steering is a bit vague so maybe there's some low hanging mod fruit there.
- KW V3
- H&R sways
- Elephant Racing front control race hardness bushings. Stock rears
- FF transmission mount
- Wevo engine mounts, black pillows
- stock top mounts
The car drives great as is but I'm always yearning for more. I feel everything I do from here on in will only be an incremental improvement so not sure it will be worth it. I do feel that the steering is a bit vague so maybe there's some low hanging mod fruit there.
08-24-2017, 02:33 AM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Check the steering rack bushings !
08-25-2017, 01:03 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
who setup and aligned the car? I'd start there to make sure the setup is perfect.
Monoball rear control arm and RSR spring plates really keep the rear end under control.
For the front end, get the ERP solid monoball inners and the monoball outers, DO get the Rothsport steering rack bushings + their steering rack brace if you don't have one. That will give you tons of feel. The stock Inner tie rods on these cars are floppy rubber crap.
If you're getting bump steer (and you are), the EVO uprights or BBIs (they're being made now, final prototypes tested great).
Monoball rear control arm and RSR spring plates really keep the rear end under control.
For the front end, get the ERP solid monoball inners and the monoball outers, DO get the Rothsport steering rack bushings + their steering rack brace if you don't have one. That will give you tons of feel. The stock Inner tie rods on these cars are floppy rubber crap.
If you're getting bump steer (and you are), the EVO uprights or BBIs (they're being made now, final prototypes tested great).
08-25-2017, 02:46 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
+1 on the Rothsport steering rack bushings and rack brace.
Have you upgraded your shifter/linkage system (Goldenrod, short shift, replaced crumbed forward rod bushings)?
What FF Trans mount do you have? I love my soft (60A) orange mounts. It really tightens everything up, and improves throttle response.
Have you upgraded your shifter/linkage system (Goldenrod, short shift, replaced crumbed forward rod bushings)?
What FF Trans mount do you have? I love my soft (60A) orange mounts. It really tightens everything up, and improves throttle response.
08-25-2017, 06:07 PM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
+1 on the Rothsport steering rack bushings and rack brace.
Have you upgraded your shifter/linkage system (Goldenrod, short shift, replaced crumbed forward rod bushings)?
What FF Trans mount do you have? I love my soft (60A) orange mounts. It really tightens everything up, and improves throttle response.
Have you upgraded your shifter/linkage system (Goldenrod, short shift, replaced crumbed forward rod bushings)?
What FF Trans mount do you have? I love my soft (60A) orange mounts. It really tightens everything up, and improves throttle response.
who setup and aligned the car? I'd start there to make sure the setup is perfect.
Monoball rear control arm and RSR spring plates really keep the rear end under control.
For the front end, get the ERP solid monoball inners and the monoball outers, DO get the Rothsport steering rack bushings + their steering rack brace if you don't have one. That will give you tons of feel. The stock Inner tie rods on these cars are floppy rubber crap.
If you're getting bump steer (and you are), the EVO uprights or BBIs (they're being made now, final prototypes tested great).
Monoball rear control arm and RSR spring plates really keep the rear end under control.
For the front end, get the ERP solid monoball inners and the monoball outers, DO get the Rothsport steering rack bushings + their steering rack brace if you don't have one. That will give you tons of feel. The stock Inner tie rods on these cars are floppy rubber crap.
If you're getting bump steer (and you are), the EVO uprights or BBIs (they're being made now, final prototypes tested great).
With regards to control arm bushings, I think I'll stick with the hard rubber offering from ER. Already have them installed in the front. RSR spring plates are on my list. How about top mounts? Anyone know how much camber can be achieved with the OE mounts?
Read a bunch about the RSR inner tie rods but need to decide whether to make the jump to EVO uprights firsts. Might just go with the tie rods with bumpsteer correction from Tarett/ER. This is predominately a canyon carver with occasional DEs.
08-25-2017, 07:47 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
I don't know how else to put this because I don't normally talk **** about people/shops. But, let's just say if Darin ever touched my car I'd have it at a real chassis shop immediately to have the work inspected and fixed.
If you want more, I have several factual events, PM me.
Don't read too much, these cars are well known and the high impact changes are well known. I listed them. Harder rubber is better than OEM. Solid is better. I'm not sure why you're against, the labor is the same to install and the solid links are not harsh at all. Anyone who has driven or ridden in mine will agree and I have zero rubber in my suspension.
You don't need a lot of camber for street and occasional DE. -2.5 or so is really plenty. And to fix bump for real, you need the Evo uprights. The ERP tie rods will help But trust me, DUMP the inners. They are **** and contribute to most of the slop in the steering unless your rack is trashed.
If you want more, I have several factual events, PM me.
Don't read too much, these cars are well known and the high impact changes are well known. I listed them. Harder rubber is better than OEM. Solid is better. I'm not sure why you're against, the labor is the same to install and the solid links are not harsh at all. Anyone who has driven or ridden in mine will agree and I have zero rubber in my suspension.
You don't need a lot of camber for street and occasional DE. -2.5 or so is really plenty. And to fix bump for real, you need the Evo uprights. The ERP tie rods will help But trust me, DUMP the inners. They are **** and contribute to most of the slop in the steering unless your rack is trashed.
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08-25-2017, 09:11 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
I don't know how else to put this because I don't normally talk **** about people/shops. But, let's just say if Darin ever touched my car I'd have it at a real chassis shop immediately to have the work inspected and fixed.
If you want more, I have several factual events, PM me.
Don't read too much, these cars are well known and the high impact changes are well known. I listed them. Harder rubber is better than OEM. Solid is better. I'm not sure why you're against, the labor is the same to install and the solid links are not harsh at all. Anyone who has driven or ridden in mine will agree and I have zero rubber in my suspension.
You don't need a lot of camber for street and occasional DE. -2.5 or so is really plenty. And to fix bump for real, you need the Evo uprights. The ERP tie rods will help But trust me, DUMP the inners. They are **** and contribute to most of the slop in the steering unless your rack is trashed.
If you want more, I have several factual events, PM me.
Don't read too much, these cars are well known and the high impact changes are well known. I listed them. Harder rubber is better than OEM. Solid is better. I'm not sure why you're against, the labor is the same to install and the solid links are not harsh at all. Anyone who has driven or ridden in mine will agree and I have zero rubber in my suspension.
You don't need a lot of camber for street and occasional DE. -2.5 or so is really plenty. And to fix bump for real, you need the Evo uprights. The ERP tie rods will help But trust me, DUMP the inners. They are **** and contribute to most of the slop in the steering unless your rack is trashed.
08-25-2017, 09:38 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Cary, who owns ERP, SUPER nice guy, a great engineer (a real one), not a great marketer or website guy :-)
Tarett carries or can get all his parts. I bought all mine from BBI who works directly with ERP (Cary).
You'd need to check with a shop like Bbi if the inner tie rods can be made to work with the stock uprights. I'm not sure.
Tarett carries or can get all his parts. I bought all mine from BBI who works directly with ERP (Cary).
You'd need to check with a shop like Bbi if the inner tie rods can be made to work with the stock uprights. I'm not sure.
08-25-2017, 11:37 PM
#10
Race Car
Spyrex- what's your suggestion for tie rods. As far as steering input and feel and directness, once the car has gone to upgraded bushings elsewhere and kw in this case, etc, stock tie rods are the biggest weak link.
I used oem C4 tierods on mine last year, as I just haven't been happy with what I've found - enough so to spend the money. So what's out there that is a good upgrade from oem. You are right, stock tie rods are mushy.
I used oem C4 tierods on mine last year, as I just haven't been happy with what I've found - enough so to spend the money. So what's out there that is a good upgrade from oem. You are right, stock tie rods are mushy.
08-25-2017, 11:56 PM
#11
Darin did my alignment as well recently. It was a tough job but what a great job. No detectable bump steer with lower than rs ride height. Had to go with -2.5 rear camber to make my massive 11" BBS e88s fit. I installed H&R deep coilovers, rear ERP top mounts, H&R front/rear sway bars, rsr spring plates. I tried to upgrade my tie rods but the monoball erp ones didn't fit my widebody. All this, coupled with my electric pump assisted power steering has been fantastic. And I did already have the rothsport steering brace installed. Then again, this is all subjective. 😉
Last edited by apanossi; 08-26-2017 at 08:41 AM.
08-26-2017, 01:32 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Spyrex- what's your suggestion for tie rods. As far as steering input and feel and directness, once the car has gone to upgraded bushings elsewhere and kw in this case, etc, stock tie rods are the biggest weak link.
I used oem C4 tierods on mine last year, as I just haven't been happy with what I've found - enough so to spend the money. So what's out there that is a good upgrade from oem. You are right, stock tie rods are mushy.
I used oem C4 tierods on mine last year, as I just haven't been happy with what I've found - enough so to spend the money. So what's out there that is a good upgrade from oem. You are right, stock tie rods are mushy.
The ones below are the erp inners. They are a direct copy of the solid monoball rsr units that are nla from Porsche. They have 2 versions. For with 993 uprights or longer for 964 uprights. That's a new part.
What I have on mine at the moment are stock 993 welded solid. I'm putting the erp units on mine. He didn't have them when I did my initial build.
Anyway, if I had a stock 964 front end I'd get fresh outers and the erp inners or erp inner and outers.
See this thread post for what is on my front end now. Not sure you can use the 993 inner without some modification on stock 964 front end.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...l#post12932517
08-26-2017, 10:23 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
It's great to see so much interest in developing products for the 964 platform, but let's steer clear of contributing to some of the middle-man price gouging.
"Rothsport" steering rack bushings are made by Ricochet Polyurethane Technologies who sell them on ebay. The only difference is the 50% markup. I wouldn't bother with the 993 steering rack brace unless you're running the quicker 993 rack, or a 964 rack with Hoosiers.
RS front control arm bushings come from an outfit in Germany who offer them on ebay, without the 30%+ Elephant Racing markup. The difference over stock bushings is not significant and I wouldn't put this very high on an upgrade list.
There is no reason to run -2.5 deg camber on anything other than an r-compound tire and off public roads. 1.0/1.3 camber is fine for street driving. For de you could add another 0.5deg negative, if you're on tires that can take advantage of it, and still be okay on the street. Ultimately, tire wear will tell you what your camber should be and it will change with tire brand/model.
You've got all of the low-hanging fruit covered. Solid inner tie rods are a good next step to tighten up the steering. Unfortunately, all of the options have absurd price tags. I'm using FVD's inners and can verify that they fit fine. Factory outer tie rods are already monoball joints and there is nothing to improve. Consider putting the car up on scales to check the corner balance if you've gone this far.
At RoW height, bump steer shouldn't be a concern at all. And I've yet to see any data to justify the expense of converting to 993rs uprights + the required 993 brakes, tie rods, ball joints, etc. Maybe if you're chasing tenths of a second laptimes, or bragging rights.
I would discourage monoball control arm bushings in any street car. There is a reason they're not used. Not even in the latest and greatest gt4.
Regardless of any of the above, nothing has been said about the single most important item: what are you doing for tires?
"Rothsport" steering rack bushings are made by Ricochet Polyurethane Technologies who sell them on ebay. The only difference is the 50% markup. I wouldn't bother with the 993 steering rack brace unless you're running the quicker 993 rack, or a 964 rack with Hoosiers.
RS front control arm bushings come from an outfit in Germany who offer them on ebay, without the 30%+ Elephant Racing markup. The difference over stock bushings is not significant and I wouldn't put this very high on an upgrade list.
There is no reason to run -2.5 deg camber on anything other than an r-compound tire and off public roads. 1.0/1.3 camber is fine for street driving. For de you could add another 0.5deg negative, if you're on tires that can take advantage of it, and still be okay on the street. Ultimately, tire wear will tell you what your camber should be and it will change with tire brand/model.
You've got all of the low-hanging fruit covered. Solid inner tie rods are a good next step to tighten up the steering. Unfortunately, all of the options have absurd price tags. I'm using FVD's inners and can verify that they fit fine. Factory outer tie rods are already monoball joints and there is nothing to improve. Consider putting the car up on scales to check the corner balance if you've gone this far.
At RoW height, bump steer shouldn't be a concern at all. And I've yet to see any data to justify the expense of converting to 993rs uprights + the required 993 brakes, tie rods, ball joints, etc. Maybe if you're chasing tenths of a second laptimes, or bragging rights.
I would discourage monoball control arm bushings in any street car. There is a reason they're not used. Not even in the latest and greatest gt4.
Regardless of any of the above, nothing has been said about the single most important item: what are you doing for tires?
08-26-2017, 10:40 AM
#14
Race Car
All spot on nick. Though, I have to say I noticed a difference in feel immediately with the poly rack bushings and rack brace. Would never make the car faster, but it feels way better.
Spyrex- thanks for the tie rod info. I was unaware ERP made those inners. Will look into them. Nick- you don't know of a less expensive source for those monoball inners do you?
Spyrex- thanks for the tie rod info. I was unaware ERP made those inners. Will look into them. Nick- you don't know of a less expensive source for those monoball inners do you?
08-26-2017, 11:13 AM
#15
Three Wheelin'
I looked high and low. The only difference between our inners and $25 Honda parts is the length and thread. There is little difference in the actual joint in most inner tie rods. Porsche is fairly unique in using a rubber joint instead of spherical. I wasn't able to find an off the shelf match, but there is room for someone to get creative.
I've gone from stock to poly to rs control arm bushings. Stock to poly added a harsh/crashing road feel, rs got rid of the harshness. I didn't notice much in the way of response or performance with any of the different versions.
I agree that the poly rack bushings do tighten up the steering, ever so slightly.
I've gone from stock to poly to rs control arm bushings. Stock to poly added a harsh/crashing road feel, rs got rid of the harshness. I didn't notice much in the way of response or performance with any of the different versions.
I agree that the poly rack bushings do tighten up the steering, ever so slightly.