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I don't know what you guys are saying about the ZR-1 being a poor example. They are in the same price range as the entry level air-cooled 911's, but they blow them away in terms of performance. Ever driven one? If not, try one out. Amazing cars. Prices for ZR-1's rose, and are now leveling off, sagging just a bit, similar to 911's. While the popularity of the ZR-1 is not mainstream, there is a cult following for them, similar to early 911's.
'67 Corvettes have indeed experienced a price run-up. Big block '67's got up into the 6 figures and have stayed there, while Porsche 911's stayed there only for a cup of coffee. They are now down about 20% off that high water mark. the Vettes are still up there though. Even the small-block Vettes (especially the L79) have experienced a steady runup, and have not sagged as much as the Porsches.
This isn't a knock against our P-cars, just pointing out what I'm seeing in the market.
No one is comparing a 67 Corvette to a 911 - I just brought up 60s Stingrays to say that those are the only Corvettes I personally love as a way of saying that I think that, with exceptions, those interested in 911s are interested in 911s or possibly other eurocars. It's usually a separate set of tastes.
I think what Gerry100 was saying was that the ZR-1 is a bad example for comparison because it was a special edition car, they didn't make many, and the engine was not of the run-of-the-mill Corvette variety so that putting a ZR-1 up to an entry level air-cooled was not a good comparison. In general the engine from Mercury Marine was amazing but the car itself, like all Corvettes of the era, is a pretty plasticky affair and I don't see any of the cars on the list in that article as being adequate substitutes for a person that wants an air-cooled Porsche.
My contention was that the article was ridiculous. People who want an air-cooled 911 want an air-cooled 911. It doesn't matter how good another car is, its not the focus of the desire.
No doubt the sudden interest in the air cooled 911's made it the new kid on the block for the collector market. They had been overlooked for so long and suddenly everyone had to have one. When the ZR-1 came out the average person only knew a Porsche by the one with the bug eyes. The 944 was a huge seller and HP of any amount over 200 was rare.
Nobody is noting that the article is comparing a much older 911 to everyone of the cars in the list and IMO one that has far more character and sports car feel than the rest. Owning this cars is not always about which is most capable as much as the thrill and excitement gets from the experience of ownership. I have driven the ZR-1 to me it was like driving a truck. We have had a couple of owners show up at our local autocross events and watching a friend in his 71 911 targa outpace them by considerable margin to me says a lot about them. The ZR-1 made lots of noise spun tires but was not a great performer but who knows if the driver had the skills he claimed. I know when I picked up my 928GTS it was delivered on the same truck with a 3000 mile all original ZR-1 in white and when they took it off the truck the thing smoked like no tomorrow and sold for $14k vs the $28k for the GTS which had 50k miles. Interestingly the 928 weathered far better than the ZR-1 despite being garage kept all its life. I am assuming their values are up like the GTS's but like all these cars there is alway something better or faster in the price range but these are antiques now and it is about the experience more than the numbers.
If you want to talk numbers the Eagle Talon was quite impressive at some of the AX I attended. Skilled driver no doubt but the car did perform showing up some modern hardware but I ask you if you were driving a 911 or eagle talon which would give you that feeling and what many crave for the attention and which has survived for all these decades?
I had made a comment back in 2010 explaining the cycle we were about to see in the upcoming years was identical to what I experienced back in the 80's during the grey market. Everyone laughed and said you can't equate one to the other but time has proven they were wrong. I agree greed has a lot to do with it just like the housing market. Far too many seizing the opportunity to buy crap slap a fresh coat of paint on it and flip it for a profit to the unsuspecting consumer. It took years for most to realize this and many fell pray to buying crap yet the quality cars that started selling for serious premiums are now tucked away in private collections and will be coveted by the owners until the market rises again one day. We saw this happen with the Ferrari and other exotic cars of the day now Porsche has solidified its place in history and people realize that nothing can be built today that can offer the feel or experience of these cars again. They aren't for everyone but for people like myself and many others I know there is no substitute.
Putting a value limit on these cars especially with such a large variation between the quality collector and the rust heap still sitting for sale shows lack of understanding of what they are about and if you get it and can afford it the value is worth what it is to you. The second you buy a car like this as an investment you have lost sight of its true value.
Agreed at all the jabs above at those comparison cars, IMO, they don't hold a candle to a 911, regardless of year. I put the article out there for this statement, to see if it really holds any water w/ the consensus.
It’s no secret that Porsche 911 values have plateaued. And some model years are now depreciating following their spectacular run-up after the Great Recession.
We're venturing away from the spirit of the article. The way I read the article, the author is saying that if the price of a 911 is out of a buyer's reach, then there are other sporty cars available that deliver similar performance or better in the same or lesser price range.
If someone is hell bent on a 911, then this is not the article for them! :-)
I've logged over 30,000 miles in various ZR-1s. GM used to loan them to me back when. The only issue was that they had to meet GM fuel mileage standards. The rear gearing was goofy. If you wanted to have true performance you had to swap out the rear gears.
I have both Corvettes and Porsches in my collection. Both are fun and you really can't compare the cars in any way. But - once you get used to 500 ft. lbs of torque it is hard to give it up
And the cams had to be timed carefully/better than the Mercury team delivered them for street use.....
My brother has one that's been re-timed. Jeebus, what a rocket ship. I particularly like the valet key switch feature that cuts the power in half to prevent Ferris Bueller parking attendant issues. lolol.
Agreed at all the jabs above at those comparison cars, IMO, they don't hold a candle to a 911, regardless of year. I put the article out there for this statement, to see if it really holds any water w/ the consensus.
It’s no secret that Porsche 911 values have plateaued. And some model years are now depreciating following their spectacular run-up after the Great Recession.
All depends on how you look at it. There were many models I was arguing people were over paying for at the height of the market especially when people were paying top dollar for cars with incorrect engines based on their initial release. A lot of people put all early 911's in one basket and now realize that they need to differentiate the good from the bad. I still see the right cars selling for big money. I know of a couple of 993 C2S and C4S bring well over 6 figures recently. That is no less than what they were bringing at the peak of the market.
We need to stop grouping all cars together and focus on the individual car for sale.
We need to stop grouping all cars together and focus on the individual car for sale.
Good point! From what I've seen, my 3.2 gen in particular has been taking off. Since I bought my Targa back in 2011, w/ 76k on the clock for $17k, the value has basically doubled, from many comparisons I see for sale. Also the Turbos and others are in the stratosphere. Where as the less desirable models, such as a '74 911, etc. might be still struggling.
Hagerty's guide shows prices trending up slightly over the last few months for G50 coupes, holding flat for 915 80's coupes. If the economy and stock prices continue to improve from here, I'd expect some additional slight improvement this coming spring across the board.
I think the strong cars are still doing good money. The market supply has increased on air cooled cars in general. Average drivers are not doing as strong money as they were 12 months ago. Just my opinion.
In the past year there were too many average and below average cars in the market. People wouldn't pay the asking prices and it looked as if the market was declining.
The other issue is the strong dollar and the declining Euro. Currency forced a lot of Europeans out of the market. That meant the market for US got smaller.
In the past year there were too many average and below average cars in the market. People wouldn't pay the asking prices and it looked as if the market was declining.
The other issue is the strong dollar and the declining Euro. Currency forced a lot of Europeans out of the market. That meant the market for US got smaller.
Richard Newton
I agree. What I find most interesting is a lot of people seem to be focusing on the early water cooled cars. 928's are seeing a huge increase in well sorted cars. A few years ago you could pick up a nice 928S4 for very little now they are commanding three times as much.
I find it interesting that Hagerty shows a $50k increase since September in value for a 94 turbo in #1 condition now valued at $345k with a number 2 at $265k and a number 4 at $129k. Seems like they are finally figuring it out. A year ago they clumped them all together.
10-27-2016, 09:42 AM
