mark kibort

first of all, it was about 6 year old tires
and the "discussion" was about your new "findings" from your "close friends" about how tires degrade with time. you said i was clueless, and that was the only "rambling" Ive read so far here.
as your article clearly states, its very unclear how long is really safe for a tire to be stored, even properly. Even the RMA is in stark disagreement with the
rule makers that are trying to find who to blame for the SUV tire debacle
If you read between the lines, these are sizes, and structures that not had the testing and statistics that the passenger and race tires have had for many many years. They are blaming failure on strictly age, when its really a tire design, or conditions issue.

to latch on to that one single article and take it as biblical truth for age effects of properly stored over 6 year old race tires, is silly.

But, i can tell you first hand, there is nothing wrong with my tires dated 2010 for use in a race near you. AND i guarantee you are not checking the dates on tires at "your "events. I think a little common sense has to be used here.
i understand the risk of auto racing and reduce them as much as i can. with my tire strategy, the only think i risk is my lap time, never safety. Ive never seen or heard of a used hoosier or toyo failing due to its age. Ive seen plenty caused by other factors though!

if you were so "concerned " with your racers and DE'ers safety, then you might look in other areas of their cars to prevent mishaps.. in my 20 years of doing this, ive seen 0 tires fail at my events , over 250 race days by the way, but ive seen 10s of wheel failures and brake failures. why dont you focus on the things that really can save a car or a life, in reality. make illegal those cheap after market wheels!

so again... read that article.. and since you might have a short attention span, ill summaraize. all the agencies and committes beleive that tires can last up to and beyond 10 years, but their advice is to make sure of the ones that are not stored, and possibly used in the most demanding arenas, are not on cars after 6 years. (but possibly longer than 10, depending on all the variables, such as use conditions, environmental conditions, and construction design)

so, its a little arrogant to say that all tires that are 10 years old cant be on the track. again, i can show you 10-12year old toyo RA1s that would be a blessing on anyone's car, and much safter than something near end of life and much newer. If my expensive street car could use a 305x35x18 tire, (it uses 19s and has 10 year old street tires on it , that need to go because i see age degradation) i would put those partial tread RA1s on them and DE them until the cows came home, because they look new, have not seen the light of day and by all measures besides cutting it open, are in very good shape! (still sticky too!)
There are literally 100 of thousands of low mileage street cars, new in 2006, running their original tires. most NEED changing i agree, but they are in no way anywhere close to the condition of a well stored race tire with 2 heat cycles on it.

DTMiller

..

Veloce Raptor

LMAO

Holy cow who has time to type all that? Or to read it? Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

mark kibort

THAT IS THE FUNNIEST THING IVE HEARD ALL DAY!
I can read that in 30 seconds... I forgot, reading is a challenge... but you got the hot girl posters down!

Let me give you the cliff notes on tire age and safety..... it depends on the tire, and how they are stored or used (what they are exposed to) that determines if they are safe. (read the article.... oh, strike that.. i forgot , you are SO busy today you dont have 30 seconds to learn something ) ive seen tires that have seen one heat cycle that i wouldnt use vs those 12year old RA1s under my house.

badabing

Thanks for the advice. Worked on this at my buddy's shop.

Best we were able to get was -.7 in the front and -1.7 in the rear.

I'll see how this feels at Tbolt.

I'll prob swing by before WGI for a "pro" adjustment.

Thanks again

mark kibort

That should work... what was the stock setting, .8 degrees?

badabing

The hunter machine shows stock front camber is -.17

When we took the initial measurements the car was all over the map compared to stock specs. Probably too much exercise at the track haha

I just drove it for a bit. So far everything feels good

DasSilberWedge

But I've enjoyed it nonetheless

Gofishracing

Reading and writing is a good skill for you to keep practicing. good luck. FYI- your tires are now 1 day older. Sure they are getting better with age. How anyone could advocate or justify running old tires is just absurd.

Aspen Autosports

Sounds good. The -.7 will help for sure. I have seen some cars where we couldn't get that. Other cars -1.2 so you probably are maxed out in the front.

The rear you can get almost -3 degrees however toe becomes a limiting factor. So installing adjustable toe links is required.

My recommendation for you is to finish out the season with the new set up. Then think about what you really want to do with the car. Think about how many miles you will be putting on the car on the street. Decide if you can go to a more aggressive alignment setting. Then we can talk about GT3 arms in the front and adjustable toe links in the rear.

I thought you had said Lightening early in the thread but if its Tbolt enjoy watching the racers. Find a yellow and blue Spec Boxster and stop by to say hello to my partner Matt.

EDIT: Tires are not like a fine wine!

badabing

It is Lightning. I misspoke. PCA club race is on Tbolt. I'm not there yet.

I will be spectating between my sessions on Lightning.

Thanks for everyone's help and advice.

Veloce Raptor

+1 on all the above

mark kibort

See, now i know you are just clowning around. look we all know tires degrade with age.. how much is something YOU (yes you you arrogant contributor, you!)
dont even know. so many factors.
I have never advocated using old tires, but i have justified it, so youre half right.

Here is a data point for you ... we all use used tires. its just a fact a life. at what point we retire them is up to the owner. generally, ill heat cycle mine out before they ever wear out or become structurally unsound. I also KNOW my car and driving with the track knowledge, i can tell what tire will wear out first and why. for example, take Willow springs. you better have a new front right, or the droop and excessive toe on that 130mph hairpin, will skin it alive in 2 sessions. that is dangerous.. (you probably saw the picture of the steel belts showing after my sessions)

anyway, im hear to tell you a fact. ive been using 2 heat cycle 50 mile tires, to 10 year old 50mile tires for 20 years now with no issues. i would not suggest this is a good practice unless you take care of proper storage of the tires. my data point is they work and have had no issues.... your data point is that you talked to someone. and the industry says , without hesitation, that there is NO way to know how long a tire remains safe, so they stick a year on the time period for ALL circumstances! its now 6 years , was 10 years. We all know that there are many factors. You DONT know if my tires are safe or not, because you dont know enough information. no one really does, hence the suggestions. Keep in mind that they are for worst case scenarios.

please read the above twice and try and comprehend. my facts are data of experience, and lap times as proof. you are basing your judgement that the experts cant even agree on and AND all conditions. There is a HUGE difference in the foundation of what each of us are saying.



good advice, and tires are not like fine wine. i remember starting at my brand new A7s this spring and knowing every day they were getting .0001 seconds slower! But, we know we all use used tires and there are many other factors that are more important to pay attention to besides just pure age.
i have tires outside by the trailer (stock rims and street tires) that are 15 years old. they still look good, but i would only use them to drive to the store in a straight line or drive the car on the trailer with them. old, no regard for storing them as they were exposed to the sun, 365 days a year for 10 years now.
no one correct answer here, but you should understand my care in the strorage and use of my tires.

its funny, thats what ive seen a lot of when a car hits the hunter machine for the first time. usually, if the car was touched by a shop in its life, the guy doing the set up , didnt take much care, so thats why the results are so unrepeatable and off to stock spec.... do it right and repeat the correct process every time, and you willl get consistent readings and know what you really have.
things like not jacking the car up before you take measurements helps a lot, even on your cars, and especially on mine! (huge difference in ride height before and after jack up until you drive the car, which alters settings tremendously)

as was said, .7 increase in camber should help a lot and the slightly lower pressure , (going full circle) will help with grip . mostly it will help with fighting the tendency to increase push in the turns which skins the outside of the tire, as your instructor/friend agreed with.
have fun and report back!

Dave, the above took 5 mins to write and my 6th grader son just read it and actually comprehended it in 3 mins.

letsrenn

Disclaimer: Total novice here.

According to the michelin and conti guides, to reduce understeer/push you should increase negative camber in the front and decrease negative camber in the rear. I imagine the concept here is that as you lean out in a turn, you are increasing the front tires' contact patch more than the rear's, shifting the traction balance more toward the front relative to the rear. So, while the car now has more negative in the front (-.7), it has MUCH more in the rear (-1.7), shifting the traction balance more toward the rear as the car leans, which is the opposite of what is trying to be achieved. At these camber values, doesn't the car now have an even greater understeer/push tendency than it had with the stock values?

zedcat

Not sure what his starting rear camber was. Generally for a US spec 987.2 the front will be -0.5 deg or less and the rear will be around -1.5. Understeer at the limit is safer for most drivers on the road. I suspect he had the -0.17 with more than -1.0 in rear. So the change in front to -.7 should help with the understeer. I'm not an expert but have driven 987.2s for awhile now.

Edit- looking at some old alignment sheets I believe 987 Cayman S factory specs are front: +0.1 to -0.4, rear: -1.1 to -1.6