Slakker

Air cooled or water cooled. What should one do?

islaTurbine

For collecting/investing or daily driver and enjoyment? Answer that and the choice is clear.

FRUNKenstein

OK, I will bite. Here's what Carl posted in Ahsai's engine rebuild thread:

"I'm looking to buy a 911 and, taken roughly, it seems that there is a choice between the air-cooled and the water-cooled versions of the engine. From a sanity-check point of view, spending $15 or $20K on a water-cooled engine because they seem to have a high failure rate has the unfortunate potential of taking the fun out of owning a sports car. I find an inordinate number ads showing 911s with engine problems.

I'm now thinking that the air-cooled 911s might be a better choice. I love all 911s, but setting reserves for a potential repair cost equal to another car is something I'd rather avoid. The next step is to look at the earlier 911s and learn what heartaches exist there.

Sincerely,
Carl"

Then ejdoherty replied:

"Carl,
Purchase the style 911 you like, but the air cooled isn't going to save you a dime. Ten years ago you could buy a very very nice 1986 911 for the low $20k range. Today that same car is $40k minimum. The cost of the air cooled car will be $20K more at least, than a 996. I see air cooled 911s with well over 100k miles asking high 30's to low 40's. And they don't seem to indicate a recent engine rebuild, which, if you're looking at a car with 140k miles (pre 1990), it's going to need one so add another $8,000 to the price.

If you are a IMSB worrier, avoid it. Buy a turbo. I personally LOVE all the IMSB insanity, it allowed me to purchase a 2002 Porsche 911 at a VERY reasonable price."

Then Carl said:
"edjoherty,

I'm not worried about costs, just surprised. Agreed, one will pay for the 911 in form or another. I didn't realize that Porsche engine overhauls costs as much as some small aircraft engines to rebuild. If the IMS is the only shortcoming to the engine and there's a fix for it, then a repurchase inspection seems prudent and then have it retrofitted straight away.

Carl"

Then 911 dreamer said:
"The air cooled engines have problems too, ask me how I know. Researching both, Id take a 996 over an air cooled engine. Porsches cost now or later...do the research and get a decent PPI and you should be fine."

Then Slakker created this thread before DBJoe996 had a contract put out on Carl.
So, here we are.

FRUNKenstein

My 2 cents worth:

There is a term sometimes seen in automobile for sale ads: "priced accordingly"

It means "Yes, I realize there is an issue with this vehicle and that's why I dropped the price."

The entire line of NA 996s is "priced accordingly " largely because of the IMS bearing hysteria. We realize that an engine failure may result in the car not being worth getting back on the road due to the cost. If an engine rebuild was a $4,000 fix, the entire line of cars would probably cost about $10,000 more, across the board, to purchase. But, in reality a budget rebuild or used engine swap is going to start at $12,000 and most people spend more. The good news is that probably 90%+ of 996 owners will never experience a blown engine. NA 996s are a smokin' bargain. If you are thinking the air cooled cars are in some way a more cost conscious alternative, I believe you will discover otherwise. Plus, the 996 is simply a better car than its predecessors (evidence that whole "evolution of the 911" thing).

gnat

Obviously a 996. You're getting in with ground floor pricing right now. This time next year you won't be able to touch a roller for less than $30k!

2016, year of the 996!

Goluscombe

Thank you. I do appreciate the constructive suggestions. I'm looking to drive the car daily but as the number two or three car to use. I agree that this is a good time to buy an early water-cooled 911. I couldn't reconcile the values of these cars against other years. If the supposed "big hit" on the these fine cars is just the IMS, then I say just fix it before it breaks the engine and move on. A few thousand dollars devoted seems money well spent.

I now need to locate shops in the San Francisco - San Jose Area that can do a PPI and shops which can replace the IMS.

Could someone help in that regard?

Sincerely,

Carl
via Dragon Dictate

VivG

Cars Dawydiak, if you're looking for something in the city. Junipero Serra Porsche in Daly City or Don Wise Autoworks in Campbell, if you're further south.

Slakker

FYI, if you are looking for the "feel" of a water cooled, the '99 is a great option. It is very light, nimble, and quick around a track. It typically has less creature comforts than the later model 996s but it is crazy fun to drive. Don't let the fact that they are cheapest fool you, it is actually one of the best years.

For maintenance, budget about $4-5k for these acronyms and you will significantly decrease you your chance of engine failure. IMS, RMS, AOS, and water pump. It's a good idea to have the clutch done at the same time while they are in there. You will also find vehicles that have some or all of these things done in the last few years. That is always a big plus.

Don't be afraid of higher mileage vehicles but a good service history (3-4 year minimum) is essential for these cars. There have been too many POSs pushed off on people by dealers either intentionally or unintentionally. Rennlisters and PCA members will typically have a greater appreciation for the vehicles and take better care of them. Both have classified ad sections. In addition, you can look up a Rennlisters posts and see what issues they've had and how they've resolved them.

Can't wait to see what you come up with.

Goluscombe

Gentleman,

Thank you. VivG, it's good to hear of these shops from someone who cares. I'll call them about the PPI and other preventative maintenance. Slakker, the 1999 suggestion is exactly what I'm looking for and will focus on that year or as near as I can. Crazy fun sounds good to me. I will use this list to look for well-cared-for cars. Also, the IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump and clutch maintenance should help the car be much more reliable, whatever the upfront cost.

In spite of all my pious "logic", it will be my heart that ultimately buys the car. When I see the car, I'll know it.

Thanks again,

Carl
via Dragon Dictate

johnireland

If you stay with a pre May 2000 build date you will get an early duel row IMS bearing. These, according to Porsche, have a failure rate of less than 1%...as stated in the famous IMS class action case. The middle generation were the "bad ones" and last generation had the same failure rate as the first generation. And with all this, there are loads of owners who never even heard of an IMS and drove their cars for years without an issue. And there are cars w/ 150k miles plus that are still on their original bearing. I bought an early 2000 model year because it didn't have those silly electric hood latches and because the 3.4 engine, though mild by today's horsepower, is more than adequate to make driving a pleasure under any circumstance...including heavy rain. Mine is my daily driver and I love walking up to the car and then slipping into the driver's seat and starting the engine. Also...the 996s have perhaps the best spare tire Porsche has made in thirty years...if that sort of thing is important to you.

Goluscombe

John Ireland,

That's very good information. I knew that the early 996's were built differently than the later version but I didn't know the exact production date.

Thanks for the details. I'll have to learn obtain the VIN number which correlates to the 911's production date.

Thanks again,

Carl
via Dragon Dictate

FRUNKenstein

Or you could just read the production date stamped on the VIN plate located in the driver's door jamb.




By the way, what's a "Dragon Dictate?" Sounds like some sort of a Chinese emperor.

Goluscombe

KCattorney,

Thanks again. I'm just used to comparing a VIN to a production list to determine its production date like is done for the VW.

Dragon Dictate is speech recognition software. And yes, it's a name that sound like should come with fortune cookies!

Sincerely,

Carl
via Dragon Dictate

Slakker

The power of suggestion. Now I'm going to have to have Chinese for lunch.

It won't help you much on the '99s, but this is a great site for MY2000 and above:

www.vindecoderz.com

Isaac747

Have your mechanic boroscope the cylinders to check for cylinder scoring