Adam144

At what point do you as an instructor speak up and get them to scale it back a notch or even ask to be dropped off in the pits?

Have you ever had to get out of the passenger seat for fear of your own safety?

jumper5836

They speak up any time they feel like the student is going to fast. The key for students is to learn the line, hit apexs and track out, be aware of what around them as well as flag stations, become smooth on/off throttle and on/off brake. If they are off in any of those areas they need to slow down so they can concentrate on getting it right.

When I started I was told to slow down, my first ever instructor told me your going to be the slowest car around the track this weekend and I shouldn't care about any of the cars behind me. He said in the end you'll be the much better driver and be quicker then any one of the cars that are passing you now because you took the time to learn the track. I was promoted from green to yellow my first weekend, he would have signed me off to solo had I know how to heel and toe that weekend. Good old heel and toe, now people don't even have to learn to do it with these modern cars.

Christien

FWIW, I don't think I ever had an instructor tell me to slow down. Quite the opposite - I've been told I could carry another 5 kmh through that corner, or 10, or I'm braking too much, I can brake later, get on the gas sooner, etc.

Torontoworker

And you won't get that data for several reasons. 1. Privacy (Drivers). 2. Tracks won't give it to you. 3. Clubs or rental companies won't give it to you. 4. All of the above. There are many reasons why each group wouldn't want this info in the public domain. There will always be someone whom would use this data/info against the industry and drivers. I'll give you one big guess who would want this data...

Pferrf1

IIRC last year on the NNJR weekend there were two guys the the Green run group driving GT2s. Something just inherently seemed wrong about learning in that car on a track like Mosport. I guess it would ultimately come down to the attitude of the student and control of the instructor.

The speed limit proposal points to the subtle (or not) difference between a HPDE event like PCA or BMWCCA and a track day like a 6th Gear. One purports to focus on the DE part of it and not meant to be 10 10ths lapping. The other makes no such claim other than to have instructors available if desired and be all about the track time and lapping. If the prices were the same wehere would you be?

For DE Events I think the biggest voice on the safety topic should go to the instructors. For pure lapping days I'm not sure that the speed limit makes sense but think everyone has to make their own choice.

For myself I think the advanced solo lapping fatal incident at Tremblant last year sealed it for me to take more serious consideration on wanting the full protection of a Head and Neck Restraint and Halo seat when out on track. Ultimately that will mean a move to a dedicated track car.

Jonathon Rolstin

Insurance companies!

Christien

A few years ago I did a calculation of the actual cost per minute of track time of the various local clubs at Mosport, from the 2-day UCR events to the 7 hours of open track days. The actual cost per minute was very similar - virtually identical, and if memory serves, I took into account the fact that nobody drives for the full 7 hours. I think I worked with 4 or 5 hours of driving time. The only significant thing that tipped the scales is needing to book a hotel for a PCA 2-day event.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again, in my own experience I've seen WAY more crashes at UCR days than any other group. My belief is that the more restricted track time per day makes people push that harder, but that's just a guess.

Turbodan

Chris, PCA also has way more cars on track than most other groups. accidents per vehicle are very low at pca.

Christien

Not at any one time. Maybe 30 cars, max, usually more like 20. 6th gear, dexter, apex, all of them may have one crash per event (single day). In the maybe 6 or 7 UCR 2-day events I've done I don't think I've ever seen less than 2, usually 3 or 4. Not all major, but damage nonetheless.

jumper5836

last couple DE I attended where over 40 cars in black group. Only issues I remember in our group where mechanical and were not accident related.

gbuff

I write this after returning from Mosport having experienced one of my most enjoyable track events of the year Tuesday so it would be easy to be overly optimistic about what I say, but considering my past experiences, as well as the recent tragic events that have unfolded, it's easier to stay grounded.

No matter how slow or fast you go, or how "safe" or "unsafe" you are, or whether you are instructing, being instructed, or driving solo, or......you get my drift.

You are on a RACETRACK.

And on a racetrack;

ANYTHING.....
can happen to...
ANYBODY.....
at....
ANYTIME.

If you do this long enough, the probability increases that you will be involved in something.....I have no data to back this claim up, but I'm at the track ALOT, and in talking to my very experienced peers that seems to be the prevailing mindset.

I've done 600 track days, give or take, and I've been involved in two major incidents--one of my own doing and the other due to a mechanical issue (fluid dump) with the car in front of me. Fortunately I was not severely injured either time, but in each case I considered quitting right then and there.....the feeling didn't last long as, in both cases, I was back on track within a week, such was/is my enjoyment of the track environment.

Speed limits? If you're being instructed, they will/should set your speed limit; if driving solo, you set your own. You'll know soon enough, one way or the other, if it's right for you. Take care of what you can control i.e. safety equipment, car prep, your general health. If you're overweight or out of shape, fix yourself so you're not crapping out in the car in the afternoon. Many events I attend offer elaborate lunches as a part of their package--if I ate that stuff there's no WAY I'd be able to drive the way I want to, which is as fast as I can go safely. I'd go right to sleep, which leads me to.....if you're tired, stop. Easy to say, hard to do, but it may save you someday.

Off the soapbox--
Gary

911 Rod

I give them a lap or 2 then dial them in with what I see.

Never had to bail on a student.

Wise words.

PPo

I would not feel safe in a GT3 or GT2 or a 2000+ Turbo or even a modern NA 911 or a modern Corvette or GTR without safety equipment (proper seat, cage(bar), neck restraint, and harness) at the big track at Mosport. I have personally witnessed accidents in NA944s that would have put people six feet under if it was not for the safety equipment. Today's modern cars would only exacerbate the issue..

I am just not that brave to trust my children's current well being to somebody else's skill and judgement of what is safe to be a passenger in modern sports cars even with an intermediate driver. Speed limit and regulations aside... today's cars are just to capable without safety equipment at tracks like Mosport. If you are brave enough to think otherwise... good for you!!

I like driving the slower race cars with safety equipment and also prefer to be on track with similar cars... or professionals in other classes!

Jonathon Rolstin

this.

Sir5n

You are on a RACETRACK.

And on a racetrack;

ANYTHING.....
can happen to...
ANYBODY.....
at....

Being in an hostile environment doesn't mean accepting everything without attempting to mitigate risk.

Are speed limits the way to go? Maybe not before looking closely at individuals who take too many risks.

I'm comfortable with the marshals making that call. Most of them have seen it all...and then some.