Pel

Hi Guys

Although ive been checking these forums out for the past few months but haven't found the time to write the below novel yet!

I started the process close to 6 months back of starting to look for what I deemed to be a classic Porsche, I decided I was after either a 930 Turbo or 964 (a 964 Turbo was preferable but not really in my budget). The more I looked the more I began to like the lines of a 964, so began keeping a file of things I wanted to do to it, cup wheels (or nice big retro fuch's if budget allowed), H&R springs etc (pretty much cliche rennlist stuff).

Once I get "the bug" with something I tend to research things pretty heavily, which has lead me to absorbing as much info as possible from this amazing site over the past couple of months.

I had a chat to Peter Booth about what I was after, he pretty much advised me that there were no mint 930's or 964's for sale, as the ones that came up needed bulk money spent on them, and the mint one's, the owners weren't selling as they could afford to keep them. He did however point me in the right direction.

I have had a look at a White NZ New 964 C4 205kms, it is a two owner car current owner 21 years (Giltraps son before that apparently). He has a full service history and had a rebuild @ 180k by Peter Booth costing the owner 25k, I have spoken to Peter about the car a couple of times and the vibe I get from him is its a good car. Most of the kms are open road kms as he would take it skiing, there was a very small rust spot appearing under the right rear window, a small ding from a carpark war and a cracked air con vent but apart from that it was a very honest car that really felt set on the road (although I have nothing to compare this too). Ideally I would have like a C2 but they are just too hard to find, the only thing putting me off this car is the km's, the car is predominantly going to be weekend car driven on fine days but I would like to have the option of doing a couple of Porsche Club events or a track day if I felt that way inclined, for this reason I don't want a "precious" car, im just wondering is if 205kms is too long in the tooth for the latter. The car is technically not for sale, the owner wants 40k which I feel is heavy for 205kms, I also worry about the resale of such a high kms car.

After a few months of looking nothing came up on either the 964 or the 930 front so I have decided to broaden my horizons so to speak and instead focus on getting the best car for my money, whilst bearing in mind I did set out to purchase a car that had some Heritage, I would also like a car that will hold its value (im aware that no car every really holds value as the amount of money you end up throwing at them blows that out the window). Because of that I decided that I would also be open to looking at either a 996 GT3 or 996 Turbo. Whilst none of these a perfect, heres what im looking at.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=631925794
It's a tip, imported and I doubt it will go for within my budget (90k)

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-630844839.htm
Seems this seller is pretty well known, 85k seems fairly reasonable, I dont know why this hasn't gone, I not really a fan of Guards Red though.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-629066091.htm
Went and looked at this a couple of days ago, it requires a targa/race license due to the side airbags being removed and a full cage being put in, I was told the car was originally owned by the guy selling the red GT3 but Devonport Car Co brought it off Marac Finance and are selling it to turn a quick buck, im not sure a GT3 with 105kms and a full cage is the right vehicle for my use, I feel the Guards Red one is better value.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-632386033.htm
This is the closest car to what I was originally after but theres something about 993's that I dont connect with as much as the 964's (although a 993 has a far nicer rear end)

A bit of a novel I know, but im really struggling to get my head around the best suited car for me (if any), or if I just keep my head down and keep waiting for either a lower kms NZ new 964 Manual in either Black, White or Silver.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks so much in advance for your advice.

Pel

Kiwi Carguy

I started my Porsche ownership with a 1977 2.7S. After that I've owned AND DRIVEN a 993 C2, 964 Turbo, 944 S2 and another 993 C2.

To be short I think the 993 on TM would be a great car for you taking all things into consideration. As long as its not needing $20k dropped on it. I've not met, read or spoken to many people that haven't enjoyed the 993 ownership experience.

My concern with the 964's (especially C4's) is expensive repair costs as they are getting older.

The 996 GT3 and Turbo are great cars but you are almost comparing apples with oranges. I was keen to go to a GT3 after my 993 and after having an interesting chat with my Indy have almost decided to keep the 993.

Keep in touch on here though as there is a wealth of knowledge on here.

One car you haven't mentioned that will be a future classic is the 944 Clubsport. Obviously not a 911 though.

peterC2S

Hey Pel and welcome. I contemplated not talking to you given your views on Guards Red.... but then I thought, hey maybe you'll see the light. You must have been in to see Peter B recently because mine was in there last week and before I left he asked me if I wanted to sell as he was seeing quite a significant increase in interest in "good, fully sorted, NZ new 911s." And very few of them about.

Your options are all over the place though. A 964 or 993 is classic end of the aircooled line, sound great, lots of community around them - yes a 964 can cost a bit to get sorted so buying well is important.

GT3 - different beast - I haven't owned one but plenty on here have or do.

997 Turbo - will sum it up by saying a friend of mine owned one recently - for a month. Now in a GT3 and says he should have done that initially. Lovely fast comfortable tourer but not a raw 911 experience.

Based on what's known in the market I'd agree with Kiwicarguy that the silver 993 seems to be the pick of the bunch out there at the moment and rare as hens teeth.

Unless Jason wants to chime in with details of a certain black manual 964...

cbnz

Hi Pel, for what its worth, I too have had a 964C4, 944S2 and now a 993C2, the 993 is more sophisticated, quieter etc, the 964 was fun but I tired of it as I wanted to do track days, which in my opinion the 944 was better for, though this is not everyone's opinion. If you have the money, I agree that the 993 is the best car if you want to retain "value", though it may not be the best car for you. Its like buying a computer, ask yourself what you want to do with it, and that should guide your purchase. Craig.

floatingkiwi

Also depending on whether you really want to go the aircooled route, you may be surprised how easy it is to stretch to a 997. My heart still pounds every time I get into it, and the older models just didn't do that for me. Or at least not the immaculate white 993 tippy that I drove, for about the same money..

Pel

Hi Guys

Thanks for your feedback

Kiwicarguy what has put you off a GT3?

Peter, I thought it may ruffle a few feathers with that Guards Red call, I should re phrase it, Ive got no problems with Guards Red, I just couldn't OWN a 996 GT3 in guards red, im not sure if the 996 shape will age as well as it's predecessors (fried egg lights). Yes it would have been me Peter B was talking about when he asked you about your 964.

What I want?? Easy, a NZ New 964 with a good history, less than 150kms and well priced. Unfortunately none have been out there the past 6 months.

The 993 is a workable option but when 996 GT3 or 997 C2 are the same money I begin to wonder.... Problem is the 997 will be worth 40-45k in a couple of years, where as the 993 presumably holds or goes up. Everyone also says the 993 was the last Porsche with a decent build quality so the 993 may even outlast a 997.

Perhaps I need to take a 997 for a spin and see how I feel about it.

peterC2S

Agree that's a good call. In addition to the 964 I've also owned a 993 and 997 S (plus 2 other 964s).

On the 964s I would say that buying a bad one is not a very satisfying experience. On the other hand a good one is just awesome. Same goes for the 993 - a good one is a total pleasure and a piece of history with that aircooled sound.

I had the 997 from new and it was a stunner. Completely capable, fast, comfortable. But a totally different ownership experience so it depends what you want from a car. They're all 911s so all capable on track and the newer ones are typically faster - but there's a different sense of occasion with the older ones. So I guess it depends on whether you have more of an affinity with the old or new - your choice, hence driving them all is a good call. Let us know how you get on.

Pel

It was the "sense of occasion" that originally drew me to 911's. Will let you know how I get on with a 997. Cheers, Pel

Kiwi Carguy

Don't get me wrong they are great cars. It was more comparing them to the 993 around purchase price, fun factor, repair cost etc etc. I may still get one but coughing up another $35k+ for a few more seconds on the track etc when the 993 has been such an involving, fun car to own is just seeming less and less appealing.

nzskater

Have gone through this recently, and I highly recommend test driving as many cars as possible. Stop searching for the perfect car and take your three favorites from your current watch list for a spin. I went with the 997 Turbo. Definitely a little more detached than a manual 993, but compared to my last car (VW Golf)... It suits me perfectly. And I got it for a (relative) steal.

Considered the 993 Targa on trademe? It was on my watch list.

Spokes

Agree with most of the comments above. Different beasts 964/993 versus 996/997.

If your heart is on a 964, then you should wait, keep looking, and weigh up the money to bring a 964 up to your standard if you like one. 204K with a rebuild is fine, check out the guy who owns a 356 with 1 million miles on the clock.

Buying an older car IMHO is more around the condition of the body and interior. I tend to feel the mechanical is solvable versus say rust: floor pan, window gutters or door sills which is always more complicated.

If you are becoming impatient, then the 993 manual is rare car in NZ - worth a look and drive. My pick.

peterC2S

Definitely good advice. Its very easy to get set on a particular car before you've driven them.

I agree to a point re the body and interior but its not hard to check the major mechanicals on the older ones, esp with a compression test and leakdown. Other things like clutch & suspension can be costed so at least you know what you're in for. But a full engine rebuild can run to $15k+ depending on what needs doing and you definitely want to know if that is imminent going in to purchase.

John McM

Fully agree. You could get lucky, but the number of 964 owners willing and able to keep them properly maintained is limited out there. No doubt if their cars came up for sale, you'd have to act very quickly.

Macca

Dont be afraid to spend more than your budget to acquire the right car. It will save you three times the extra money it costs to purchase, within the first few years, if you are a fussy owner.

Good NZ 964/993 manuals are now very difficult to find. I believe the silver car sold so it could be a while before another 6spd coupe comes up. Finding a nice 964 in fine fettle is equally as hard these days. The last one I saw go was Matts red C2 6 months back. I dont think you can be colour choosy with 964/993. Jason's black C4 may come up soon and that would be worth a look at for sure.

The 996.1 GT3 is a totally different car. If you will do regular track work its worth the 30-50k over a manual 964/993. If you are mainly fast weekend road/tarmac driver then a decently set up 964/993 will be almost as fast and possibly more fun. On the track we are probably talking a difference of 2-3 s a lap stock at somewhere like HD or Manfield.

Best of luck in your hunt. Its worth waiting for thee right deal. Keep an eye on our other board for comments on gear for sale etc...

356Downunder

PM sent re my manual 993 Targa.