Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
11-23-2017, 06:23 AM
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Top of the South
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Seems to be a bigger issue round here this year - starlings are rampant - building a nest in the tractor engine and laying eggs in an overnight operation despite wrapping the bonnet in tarpaulin. Now leaving the bonnet open so any nest visible to hawks etc. Some mornings there are a dozen starlings in the shed that have squeezed through small gaps - like flying rats - and now checking the porsche etc. for nests before firing up!
11-23-2017, 06:34 AM
Rennlist Member
Hi Greg, I agree that the roads across the Divide & down the West Coast are some of the best driving roads anywhere, globally, without the traffic of the famous European alpine passes and less attention from the constabulary than the other state highways.
I'm really interested to hear about your Nurburgring VLN 24 hr & endurance racing experiences.
I've always had this fantasy about getting three or four like-minded guys together to pitch in, tout for as much sponsorship as possible to cover consumables and run something interesting in the Nurburgring or Spa 24hrs. I'm sure it's nothing like that simple!
It strikes me that in graduating from track days, endurance racing is the best bang for your buck. It seems to reward mechanical sympathy, consistency and good risk judgment to a degree which allows lower budget teams to be relatively more competitive than in the shorter race formats.
There was a team from Sweden (Dr Matthias Schnozzle, Erwin Derricks, Andrea Kummel & Manfred Cubic) which used to drive their 500SEC to 24 hr races. They definitely competed in the 2006 Britcar at Silverstone and in the Nurburging 24 hrs. I read that they had a rule that at driver changes the new driver had to change the CD!
Any fool can go bankrupt trying to be competitive in motorsport but it takes ingenuity to be enjoyably competitive on a relatively modest budget.
Alistair Caldwell observed that the motorsport business model is basically to wander round with a begging bowl and to spend everything which comes your way - totally broken.
Tim
I'm really interested to hear about your Nurburgring VLN 24 hr & endurance racing experiences.
I've always had this fantasy about getting three or four like-minded guys together to pitch in, tout for as much sponsorship as possible to cover consumables and run something interesting in the Nurburgring or Spa 24hrs. I'm sure it's nothing like that simple!
It strikes me that in graduating from track days, endurance racing is the best bang for your buck. It seems to reward mechanical sympathy, consistency and good risk judgment to a degree which allows lower budget teams to be relatively more competitive than in the shorter race formats.
There was a team from Sweden (Dr Matthias Schnozzle, Erwin Derricks, Andrea Kummel & Manfred Cubic) which used to drive their 500SEC to 24 hr races. They definitely competed in the 2006 Britcar at Silverstone and in the Nurburging 24 hrs. I read that they had a rule that at driver changes the new driver had to change the CD!
Any fool can go bankrupt trying to be competitive in motorsport but it takes ingenuity to be enjoyably competitive on a relatively modest budget.
Alistair Caldwell observed that the motorsport business model is basically to wander round with a begging bowl and to spend everything which comes your way - totally broken.
Tim
11-23-2017, 08:21 PM
Rennlist Member
Not sure but I think I drive that white NZ UR a fair while back. If it’s same car was owned by a fellow in Ponsonby.
Megane update. Plans for stage 2 upgrade been downgraded to stage 1 after difficulty getting the factory car out (apparently larger in the last Euro6 compliant Meganes) would have turned a 1 day job into three and I’ve run out of time and patience in Auckland. I guess the silver lining is well install the new Wagner Intercooler at the same time and then run a final tune probably in a weeks time or so. It will give me an opportunity at least to see how the stage 1 Tune with factory cat and intercooler affects times at Taupo this weekend. Not sure how many sessions we’ll get before the tyres cord but it will also help understand if these Yoko can take a full four days at track and some decent road mileage which may qualify then as an ideal fast road tyre that can last on the track during our South Island track tour end of Feb.
Having now had some excellent advice from a few FWD track junkies on tyre pressures, driving styles and set up I think by the time we’ve completed 2-3 more track days over the next couple of weeks we should be pretty much at an optimal point of set up for the time being without having messed with the road manners detrimentally....
Megane update. Plans for stage 2 upgrade been downgraded to stage 1 after difficulty getting the factory car out (apparently larger in the last Euro6 compliant Meganes) would have turned a 1 day job into three and I’ve run out of time and patience in Auckland. I guess the silver lining is well install the new Wagner Intercooler at the same time and then run a final tune probably in a weeks time or so. It will give me an opportunity at least to see how the stage 1 Tune with factory cat and intercooler affects times at Taupo this weekend. Not sure how many sessions we’ll get before the tyres cord but it will also help understand if these Yoko can take a full four days at track and some decent road mileage which may qualify then as an ideal fast road tyre that can last on the track during our South Island track tour end of Feb.
Having now had some excellent advice from a few FWD track junkies on tyre pressures, driving styles and set up I think by the time we’ve completed 2-3 more track days over the next couple of weeks we should be pretty much at an optimal point of set up for the time being without having messed with the road manners detrimentally....
11-24-2017, 03:55 AM
Nah, I'm in IT -- smallish company in Ruakura. I was just curious because my 3 year old needed some stitches last weekend, and I wondered if there was any chance you were going to be on the end of the gas mask...
Anyway, back to the automotive goodness!
Anyway, back to the automotive goodness!
11-26-2017, 01:49 AM
Rennlist Member
Update after track day four in MegRS today at Taupo. Good turn out today, warm ambient with first session starting 16C track temps 25 and last session 21/22C track temps over 45C.
The road tyres fitted to the car are now knackered and in need of replacement after 3200km of which 20% useage has been Track. They are bald on shoulders and chunking. They haven’t corded so my guess is they could last probably 1 more track day and 1500-2000 hard road km but I’ll probably replace them in the next 500km/week in favour it a track tyre. Likely Dunlop DS03G medium as I am not confident in the age of the Hankook Z221 soft the BZ distributor has in stock and the price difference is $80 a set fitted...
The Stage1 power upgrade has helped drop the lap times by 1.0s a lap best lap was 1.48.56 - I’ll post traces later. The extra mid range has helped a bit on the straights with 2-4kmph higher vmax. Unfortunately the tyres are likely a bit heat cycles today after 25 track sessions so I think they are unable to leverage the power benefits on corner exit as the car struggles for grip. They’ve given all they have by the third full lap each session, but it’s been plenty of fun throttle over steering the Meg around the track with howling tyres once the five up grip - you can tell this chassis would be very very good in the wet - very progressive on the throttle.
In the next 10 days we will have completed the stage 2 power upgrade which will add 8-9kw and 35-40nm I expect - it includes removing the car from the system and the extra torque will be welcome to make up for gear ratios - the stage 1 torque bump has already reduced shifts by 1-2 changes a lap.
My predictions to date have been on the money so I expect the car to drop over 2s a lap at Taupo on 16 dec with R Como and Stage 2. I’d expect a best lap in low 1.46 dependant on temps. The intercooler will assist with consistency. It’s possible on a 16C or below day we could manage a high 45.
Next track day is 7 Dec HD so by mid Dec we will have 6 track days on the car in its first 5 weeks ownership and around 6000km total! First oil change next week and a second change and gearbox oil after SITT when she’s closer 13000km.
The only mods left on the table to consider are KW Clubsport coil overs, corner Wright, lowering the car 30mm with more camber and adjustable rear sway bars. I’m guessing that set up will get the car solidly into the mid/low 45s at Taupo and add a day extra to tyre life. Not sure we go there as it’s a 5k investment and comes with a few compromises on the road....
Still when you consider a low 1.45 car all set up new out if the box for under 45k that will be quicker than a 997.2 911S in R comps that’s. Not bad going?
The road tyres fitted to the car are now knackered and in need of replacement after 3200km of which 20% useage has been Track. They are bald on shoulders and chunking. They haven’t corded so my guess is they could last probably 1 more track day and 1500-2000 hard road km but I’ll probably replace them in the next 500km/week in favour it a track tyre. Likely Dunlop DS03G medium as I am not confident in the age of the Hankook Z221 soft the BZ distributor has in stock and the price difference is $80 a set fitted...
The Stage1 power upgrade has helped drop the lap times by 1.0s a lap best lap was 1.48.56 - I’ll post traces later. The extra mid range has helped a bit on the straights with 2-4kmph higher vmax. Unfortunately the tyres are likely a bit heat cycles today after 25 track sessions so I think they are unable to leverage the power benefits on corner exit as the car struggles for grip. They’ve given all they have by the third full lap each session, but it’s been plenty of fun throttle over steering the Meg around the track with howling tyres once the five up grip - you can tell this chassis would be very very good in the wet - very progressive on the throttle.
In the next 10 days we will have completed the stage 2 power upgrade which will add 8-9kw and 35-40nm I expect - it includes removing the car from the system and the extra torque will be welcome to make up for gear ratios - the stage 1 torque bump has already reduced shifts by 1-2 changes a lap.
My predictions to date have been on the money so I expect the car to drop over 2s a lap at Taupo on 16 dec with R Como and Stage 2. I’d expect a best lap in low 1.46 dependant on temps. The intercooler will assist with consistency. It’s possible on a 16C or below day we could manage a high 45.
Next track day is 7 Dec HD so by mid Dec we will have 6 track days on the car in its first 5 weeks ownership and around 6000km total! First oil change next week and a second change and gearbox oil after SITT when she’s closer 13000km.
The only mods left on the table to consider are KW Clubsport coil overs, corner Wright, lowering the car 30mm with more camber and adjustable rear sway bars. I’m guessing that set up will get the car solidly into the mid/low 45s at Taupo and add a day extra to tyre life. Not sure we go there as it’s a 5k investment and comes with a few compromises on the road....
Still when you consider a low 1.45 car all set up new out if the box for under 45k that will be quicker than a 997.2 911S in R comps that’s. Not bad going?
11-26-2017, 02:05 AM
Three Wheelin'
Update after track day four in MegRS today at Taupo. Good turn out today, warm ambient with first session starting 16C track temps 25 and last session 21/22C track temps over 45C.
The road tyres fitted to the car are now knackered and in need of replacement after 3200km of which 20% useage has been Track. They are bald on shoulders and chunking. They haven €™t corded so my guess is they could last probably 1 more track day and 1500-2000 hard road km but I €™ll probably replace them in the next 500km/week in favour it a track tyre. Likely Dunlop DS03G medium as I am not confident in the age of the Hankook Z221 soft the BZ distributor has in stock and the price difference is $80 a set fitted...
The Stage1 power upgrade has helped drop the lap times by 1.0s a lap best lap was 1.48.56 - I €™ll post traces later. The extra mid range has helped a bit on the straights with 2-4kmph higher vmax. Unfortunately the tyres are likely a bit heat cycles today after 25 track sessions so I think they are unable to leverage the power benefits on corner exit as the car struggles for grip. They €™ve given all they have by the third full lap each session, but it €™s been plenty of fun throttle over steering the Meg around the track with howling tyres once the five up grip - you can tell this chassis would be very very good in the wet - very progressive on the throttle.
In the next 10 days we will have completed the stage 2 power upgrade which will add 8-9kw and 35-40nm I expect - it includes removing the car from the system and the extra torque will be welcome to make up for gear ratios - the stage 1 torque bump has already reduced shifts by 1-2 changes a lap.
My predictions to date have been on the money so I expect the car to drop over 2s a lap at Taupo on 16 dec with R Como and Stage 2. I €™d expect a best lap in low 1.46 dependant on temps. The intercooler will assist with consistency. It €™s possible on a 16C or below day we could manage a high 45.
Next track day is 7 Dec HD so by mid Dec we will have 6 track days on the car in its first 5 weeks ownership and around 6000km total! First oil change next week and a second change and gearbox oil after SITT when she €™s closer 13000km.
The only mods left on the table to consider are KW Clubsport coil overs, corner Wright, lowering the car 30mm with more camber and adjustable rear sway bars. I €™m guessing that set up will get the car solidly into the mid/low 45s at Taupo and add a day extra to tyre life. Not sure we go there as it €™s a 5k investment and comes with a few compromises on the road....
Still when you consider a low 1.45 car all set up new out if the box for under 45k that will be quicker than a 997.2 911S in R comps that €™s. Not bad going?
The road tyres fitted to the car are now knackered and in need of replacement after 3200km of which 20% useage has been Track. They are bald on shoulders and chunking. They haven €™t corded so my guess is they could last probably 1 more track day and 1500-2000 hard road km but I €™ll probably replace them in the next 500km/week in favour it a track tyre. Likely Dunlop DS03G medium as I am not confident in the age of the Hankook Z221 soft the BZ distributor has in stock and the price difference is $80 a set fitted...
The Stage1 power upgrade has helped drop the lap times by 1.0s a lap best lap was 1.48.56 - I €™ll post traces later. The extra mid range has helped a bit on the straights with 2-4kmph higher vmax. Unfortunately the tyres are likely a bit heat cycles today after 25 track sessions so I think they are unable to leverage the power benefits on corner exit as the car struggles for grip. They €™ve given all they have by the third full lap each session, but it €™s been plenty of fun throttle over steering the Meg around the track with howling tyres once the five up grip - you can tell this chassis would be very very good in the wet - very progressive on the throttle.
In the next 10 days we will have completed the stage 2 power upgrade which will add 8-9kw and 35-40nm I expect - it includes removing the car from the system and the extra torque will be welcome to make up for gear ratios - the stage 1 torque bump has already reduced shifts by 1-2 changes a lap.
My predictions to date have been on the money so I expect the car to drop over 2s a lap at Taupo on 16 dec with R Como and Stage 2. I €™d expect a best lap in low 1.46 dependant on temps. The intercooler will assist with consistency. It €™s possible on a 16C or below day we could manage a high 45.
Next track day is 7 Dec HD so by mid Dec we will have 6 track days on the car in its first 5 weeks ownership and around 6000km total! First oil change next week and a second change and gearbox oil after SITT when she €™s closer 13000km.
The only mods left on the table to consider are KW Clubsport coil overs, corner Wright, lowering the car 30mm with more camber and adjustable rear sway bars. I €™m guessing that set up will get the car solidly into the mid/low 45s at Taupo and add a day extra to tyre life. Not sure we go there as it €™s a 5k investment and comes with a few compromises on the road....
Still when you consider a low 1.45 car all set up new out if the box for under 45k that will be quicker than a 997.2 911S in R comps that €™s. Not bad going?
11-26-2017, 02:31 PM
Rennlist Member
Thanks Graeme. I’ve been rotating the current tyres after every track day but only front to back as they were directional. The Dunlop’s are fully asymmetrical right?
11-26-2017, 04:49 PM
Three Wheelin'
No think they are directional too. The edges will wear quickly on the fronts depending on camber, caster and pressures. Hence side to side. M2 compound could wear as quickly or nearly as quick as the road tyres you are using. I needed 6 tyres to get me through a 5 day targa in a Civic type R weighing about 1200+kg without too much gas.
11-26-2017, 10:50 PM
Rennlist Member
Thanks Graeme. Id be happy if the M2 would last as long as the Yoko AD08R Im using. I think I could probably squeeze a maximum of a 5th day from the Yoko's or more likely another half day. Given the limited camber form factory I think I have to accept that 4 is probably good going and to get 5-6 would require getting some coil-overs with adjustable top plates. Im having the DZ03G fitted next Monday then will have the stage 2 tune performed Tuesday and will be at the track again Thursday (HD) so will know more again then...
11-26-2017, 11:04 PM
Rennlist Member
Here are the best laps from Monday (Pre tune - Road tyres on 3rd track day ambients 20C track 40ish) vs Sunday (Post stage 1 remap only with road tyres on fourth track day ambient 21C track temps 45-50C).
The 0.9s benefit is by combination of slightly higher Vmax on the straights and the torque fill helping with some mid corner speeds. My laps are reasonably consistent in this comparison. Unfortunately I dont think the tyres have allowed the full benefits of the additional 45bhp and 60nm to get to the ground. Stage 2 involves a cat free downpipe instalation and a larger inter cooler for +12bhp but more significantly +30-40nm which with R comp tyres should fully leverage the tune.
I think it reasonable to assume we should see 2-2.5s benefit from R comp plus Stage 2 tune plus intercooler in the next revision when out at Taupo on 16 December assuming conditions at the track are similar.
After that I think 1.44/45s are only achievable from dropping the 4WD like ride high by 30mm with Clubsport KW shocks for better chassis control, camber and stiffer springs. Im not sure what in reality the improved suspension would yield but suspect with corner weight and rear sway bar addition perhaps another 1s a lap.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4e681eed3d.png
The 0.9s benefit is by combination of slightly higher Vmax on the straights and the torque fill helping with some mid corner speeds. My laps are reasonably consistent in this comparison. Unfortunately I dont think the tyres have allowed the full benefits of the additional 45bhp and 60nm to get to the ground. Stage 2 involves a cat free downpipe instalation and a larger inter cooler for +12bhp but more significantly +30-40nm which with R comp tyres should fully leverage the tune.
I think it reasonable to assume we should see 2-2.5s benefit from R comp plus Stage 2 tune plus intercooler in the next revision when out at Taupo on 16 December assuming conditions at the track are similar.
After that I think 1.44/45s are only achievable from dropping the 4WD like ride high by 30mm with Clubsport KW shocks for better chassis control, camber and stiffer springs. Im not sure what in reality the improved suspension would yield but suspect with corner weight and rear sway bar addition perhaps another 1s a lap.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4e681eed3d.png
11-27-2017, 01:55 PM
Hi Greg, I agree that the roads across the Divide & down the West Coast are some of the best driving roads anywhere, globally, without the traffic of the famous European alpine passes and less attention from the constabulary than the other state highways.
I'm really interested to hear about your Nurburgring VLN 24 hr & endurance racing experiences.
I've always had this fantasy about getting three or four like-minded guys together to pitch in, tout for as much sponsorship as possible to cover consumables and run something interesting in the Nurburgring or Spa 24hrs. I'm sure it's nothing like that simple!
It strikes me that in graduating from track days, endurance racing is the best bang for your buck. It seems to reward mechanical sympathy, consistency and good risk judgment to a degree which allows lower budget teams to be relatively more competitive than in the shorter race formats.
There was a team from Sweden (Dr Matthias Schnozzle, Erwin Derricks, Andrea Kummel & Manfred Cubic) which used to drive their 500SEC to 24 hr races. They definitely competed in the 2006 Britcar at Silverstone and in the Nurburging 24 hrs. I read that they had a rule that at driver changes the new driver had to change the CD!
Any fool can go bankrupt trying to be competitive in motorsport but it takes ingenuity to be enjoyably competitive on a relatively modest budget.
Alistair Caldwell observed that the motorsport business model is basically to wander round with a begging bowl and to spend everything which comes your way - totally broken.
Tim
I'm really interested to hear about your Nurburgring VLN 24 hr & endurance racing experiences.
I've always had this fantasy about getting three or four like-minded guys together to pitch in, tout for as much sponsorship as possible to cover consumables and run something interesting in the Nurburgring or Spa 24hrs. I'm sure it's nothing like that simple!
It strikes me that in graduating from track days, endurance racing is the best bang for your buck. It seems to reward mechanical sympathy, consistency and good risk judgment to a degree which allows lower budget teams to be relatively more competitive than in the shorter race formats.
There was a team from Sweden (Dr Matthias Schnozzle, Erwin Derricks, Andrea Kummel & Manfred Cubic) which used to drive their 500SEC to 24 hr races. They definitely competed in the 2006 Britcar at Silverstone and in the Nurburging 24 hrs. I read that they had a rule that at driver changes the new driver had to change the CD!
Any fool can go bankrupt trying to be competitive in motorsport but it takes ingenuity to be enjoyably competitive on a relatively modest budget.
Alistair Caldwell observed that the motorsport business model is basically to wander round with a begging bowl and to spend everything which comes your way - totally broken.
Tim
Having done the Nurburgring 24 hour 3 times I've decided I've ticked the bucket list in that arena enough - I wasn't even on the bucket list before 2010! Some Nurburgring tourist laps were on that list, so 155 laps with half of them racing laps would have been some kind of absurd dream!
Sadly now, the qualification criteria for the 24 Hour have been tightened. Prior to 2011 the New Zealand team, Kiwi Team Nurburgring, owned by Greg Taylor and managed (exceptionally well) by Brian McGovern had a dispensation from the organisers to run drivers who did not meet the entry criteria of a minimum of 2 VLN races plus compulsory driver training at the course run by ADAC, or having driven in the 24 hour in the previous 5 years. That dispensation was removed for 2011, so I was exceptionally fortunate to have run in 2010. They didn't even relax that rule for Craig Lowndes in 2011, and he failed to qualify because their car failed to complete one of the VLN races.
In 2013 I ran with Gotz motorsport, courtesy of my previsous experience in the race and the close relationship that Gotz had with KTN. That was in a Scirocco GT24, previously run by Carlos Sainz and Hans Stuck in 2008 or 9 to 11th place overall. A much quicker car than the Civics run by KTN.
http://motorsport.goetz-motorsport.net/
There are other endurance races around the world where Kiwis run and I can put you in touch with someone who is currently involved in endurance racing in the US, who will give you good up to date advice. I was offered a drive at COTA in Austin recently.
PM me if interested. You would need experience well beyond track day driving to even consider this. I had no circuit race experience until 6 months before going to the 'Ring (which I remedied) but had run Targa 4 times with good results, and the Nordschleife has more than a passing resemblance to some of our Targa roads!
11-27-2017, 03:59 PM
Three Wheelin'
Sorry now that I didn't join the second civic team with you Sparky when the boys vacated it for a faster car. But thats all hindsight. Just got to keep having fun.
11-28-2017, 02:41 AM
Rennlist Member
Great write up Greg. What a unique experience. I need to get you out in the Meg some time to show me the proper lines!
The M-tech shifter is in (www.short-shifters.com). I looked at my notes and the part was $250 landed inc GST. What was proclaimed on their website as a 45 minute job took Tony B and myself over 5 hours or work today on his hoist. There's a tonne of electrical crap (battery box and associated cabling and pipes) that has to come off first and then removing the gudgen pin that holds the older shifter arm on the gearbox and re using it for the new one was a royal PITA! Even our oil and filter change plan was thwarted. The factory filter wouldnt budge with the tools we had to hand so we left it in place and just replaced the oil!
Box feels alot more direct and notchy now. Havent had a proper drive in it yet due to rain finally arriving shortly after doing the job. Will take it for a proper run tommorow. Not a job Id consider again knowing how long it took - I think the reinforced bottom tranny/engine mount we did last week already made it feel much more positive. Now it feels like the GT4 shifter notchy but yet to know how precise...
The M-tech shifter is in (www.short-shifters.com). I looked at my notes and the part was $250 landed inc GST. What was proclaimed on their website as a 45 minute job took Tony B and myself over 5 hours or work today on his hoist. There's a tonne of electrical crap (battery box and associated cabling and pipes) that has to come off first and then removing the gudgen pin that holds the older shifter arm on the gearbox and re using it for the new one was a royal PITA! Even our oil and filter change plan was thwarted. The factory filter wouldnt budge with the tools we had to hand so we left it in place and just replaced the oil!
Box feels alot more direct and notchy now. Havent had a proper drive in it yet due to rain finally arriving shortly after doing the job. Will take it for a proper run tommorow. Not a job Id consider again knowing how long it took - I think the reinforced bottom tranny/engine mount we did last week already made it feel much more positive. Now it feels like the GT4 shifter notchy but yet to know how precise...
11-29-2017, 06:36 AM
Rennlist Member
I'll second that Macca - that's really insightful Greg - thank you very much.
The crippling cost of motorsport is something which can't be over-emphasised, hence the need for a collaborative approach.
If I'm to be totally honest, rallying would be my first choice and endurance racing would follow.
While it's generally much cheaper to buy a racing car than to build one - it's apparent that racing is in another category of time, expense and commitment to
even the most dedicated track day involvement.
Tim
The crippling cost of motorsport is something which can't be over-emphasised, hence the need for a collaborative approach.
If I'm to be totally honest, rallying would be my first choice and endurance racing would follow.
While it's generally much cheaper to buy a racing car than to build one - it's apparent that racing is in another category of time, expense and commitment to
even the most dedicated track day involvement.
Tim
