Student/instructor trouble
05-25-2017, 02:04 PM
#31
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing I'll add to this is after having had a bunch of first time students is that they've all been different... For some, things "click" quickly and they'll be consistently on line by the afternoon sessions. Others struggle a lot the first day but improve dramatically the next morning. Some continue to struggle through their first event but come back and improve rapidly their next time out...
The important things are to keep things safe for everyone and try to make sure they stay upbeat and have fun--regardless of how well they learn.
The important things are to keep things safe for everyone and try to make sure they stay upbeat and have fun--regardless of how well they learn.
05-25-2017, 02:29 PM
#32
Also a relatively new, young (29) instructor here. Lots of good advice in this thread. One thing that has been helpful for me is reaching out to my students by email a few days before the event. I will ask some questions to get to know a little about them and their car.
05-25-2017, 02:40 PM
#33
Lot of good advices and help guys, thanks a lot.
I brought one of my race car and didnt have a passenger seat to show him.
During 2nd day, i thought in my head, i should drive his car for a few laps again and show him the proper way and i didnt do it. that was a mistake.
I mentor the white run group also, which is the first solo group. So, i ride in a lot of cars as mentionned earlier. I do refresh them the basic cause they often forget.
I was also giving him hands signal to help.
I care about my students a lot, their improvement till black run group.
This was a little failure to me.....
I brought one of my race car and didnt have a passenger seat to show him.
During 2nd day, i thought in my head, i should drive his car for a few laps again and show him the proper way and i didnt do it. that was a mistake.
I mentor the white run group also, which is the first solo group. So, i ride in a lot of cars as mentionned earlier. I do refresh them the basic cause they often forget.
I was also giving him hands signal to help.
I care about my students a lot, their improvement till black run group.
This was a little failure to me.....
05-25-2017, 02:58 PM
#34
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seb, all you have to do is go to a golf course some Saturday. You will see golfers who have been playing (with lessons) for 20 or 30 years, literally thousands of rounds, yet they still slice it into the woods off the first tee. But they love it and will be back again the next Saturday.
Not everyone has the ability to be good at an activity, regardless of how much they love it. As long as your student was safe and wants to come back to do it again, you've succeeded.
By age 60 (which I am VERY close to!), we've come to the sad realization that we won't be earning a living from racing or high performance driving - it's a passion that we pursue while trying to improve, even if the improvement is at a snail's pace. That student may never get beyond green or yellow, but in the big picture, so what? If he is enjoying himself while driving in a safe manner, it's a win-win.
Not everyone has the ability to be good at an activity, regardless of how much they love it. As long as your student was safe and wants to come back to do it again, you've succeeded.
By age 60 (which I am VERY close to!), we've come to the sad realization that we won't be earning a living from racing or high performance driving - it's a passion that we pursue while trying to improve, even if the improvement is at a snail's pace. That student may never get beyond green or yellow, but in the big picture, so what? If he is enjoying himself while driving in a safe manner, it's a win-win.
05-25-2017, 03:13 PM
#35
Lot of good advices and help guys, thanks a lot.
I brought one of my race car and didnt have a passenger seat to show him.
During 2nd day, i thought in my head, i should drive his car for a few laps again and show him the proper way and i didnt do it. that was a mistake.
I mentor the white run group also, which is the first solo group. So, i ride in a lot of cars as mentionned earlier. I do refresh them the basic cause they often forget.
I was also giving him hands signal to help.
I care about my students a lot, their improvement till black run group.
This was a little failure to me.....
I brought one of my race car and didnt have a passenger seat to show him.
During 2nd day, i thought in my head, i should drive his car for a few laps again and show him the proper way and i didnt do it. that was a mistake.
I mentor the white run group also, which is the first solo group. So, i ride in a lot of cars as mentionned earlier. I do refresh them the basic cause they often forget.
I was also giving him hands signal to help.
I care about my students a lot, their improvement till black run group.
This was a little failure to me.....
Very Mr. Miyagi like comment there 
05-25-2017, 03:49 PM
#36
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
My first time on track was at Pocono South and I think I was worse than any student I ever had.
05-25-2017, 04:02 PM
#37
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Seb, all you have to do is go to a golf course some Saturday. You will see golfers who have been playing (with lessons) for 20 or 30 years, literally thousands of rounds, yet they still slice it into the woods off the first tee. But they love it and will be back again the next Saturday.
Not everyone has the ability to be good at an activity, regardless of how much they love it. As long as your student was safe and wants to come back to do it again, you've succeeded.
By age 60 (which I am VERY close to!), we've come to the sad realization that we won't be earning a living from racing or high performance driving - it's a passion that we pursue while trying to improve, even if the improvement is at a snail's pace. That student may never get beyond green or yellow, but in the big picture, so what? If he is enjoying himself while driving in a safe manner, it's a win-win.
Not everyone has the ability to be good at an activity, regardless of how much they love it. As long as your student was safe and wants to come back to do it again, you've succeeded.
By age 60 (which I am VERY close to!), we've come to the sad realization that we won't be earning a living from racing or high performance driving - it's a passion that we pursue while trying to improve, even if the improvement is at a snail's pace. That student may never get beyond green or yellow, but in the big picture, so what? If he is enjoying himself while driving in a safe manner, it's a win-win.
I know plenty of people who are comfortable in the run group they are in and don't care about progressing. Also the very experienced drivers who drive older cars and drive in lower run groups so they don't get run over by the newer faster cars.
The only exception I will make is that Paul Newman was 47 when he entered his first professional race and the Rolex 24 when he was 81 was his last.
This gives me hope as I would love to drive in a professional race some day just to say I did it. Bucket list stuff.
05-25-2017, 04:33 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
What an interesting thread. I'm a longtime racer, with no interest in DE instructing; too scary! But I am a ski instructor, and the parallels are striking. Being able to do an activity well is a prerequisite for teaching that activity effectively, but effective teaching requires far more besides. To obtain advanced ski instructor certifications, a great deal of coursework is required having to do with student motivations, goals, and learning styles; developmental and learning psychology; and teaching approaches, methods, and content appropriate to all of those things. It seems the OP might benefit from some of that type of background.
05-25-2017, 04:46 PM
#39
The most critical thing I feel for a Newby is to understand that little voice in the back of their head that they always thought told them the truth - LIES to them at the track. Their mind tells them they need to turn in early. We need to get the initial imprint of the correct line quickly. Late apex- control your corner entry so you can control your corner exit. Students that are Skiers are easy to use the idea of flow.
05-25-2017, 05:36 PM
#40
Race Car
I had a student that I couldn't connect with last year. I tried everything I knew. I literally felt like a failure and stewed over it for a few days after including additional e-mails with the student on things to try the next time out.
He could speak the lap to me out loud as we were driving and still have a 10-15 second delta in lap times from lap to lap without any traffic.
It was really frustrating for me, I felt like I failed.
He could speak the lap to me out loud as we were driving and still have a 10-15 second delta in lap times from lap to lap without any traffic.
It was really frustrating for me, I felt like I failed.
05-25-2017, 06:36 PM
#41
Drifting
I had a very young student this weekend. The initial instructor did two sessions and they were both flustered. She had a great attitude, but it was a combined Blue/Green run group (don't ask...). She was completely intimidated and overwhelmed. She had spun a couple times (driving a 911). The initial instructor was even asking about having her skip the rest of that days sessions.
He reached out to me as I was initially assigned to her and I had an open slot.
I jumped in -- found out she was just a bit older than my daughter -- and they ad similar interests -- so I made a connection. I tried to play it as, lets just go drive... I'll do the hard work for you.
I focussed on keeping her safe (don't lift, gas gas gas) and lowering the tasks she had to deal with initially (primarily looking out for and managing traffic). I also reduced shifting significantly. I let her run at the pace she wanted to go. When she put things together -- I cheerleaded to keep her spirits up.
By the end of the day -- she was doing fine. The rest of the weekend she was in a green only group and I added traffic management and working the line. By the end of day 2 she was mid-pack, having a good time and getting quicker. At this point she was not overwhelmed -- in fact she was prone to making "impatient" mistakes. Early Apex, not slowing enough, etc. But even her mistakes were at the slower corners with plenty of track out (and the occasional speed bump -- to remind her of her mistake), but overall even when pushing wide, she was in control of the car. In the sections of the track where making a mistake or loosing focus could be a bigger problem -- I coached her through those sections. Some folks have to make the mistakes to learn, I'm definitely one of those (and still am!)
We ended up having a great time -- I'm sure given seat time she'll be a decent driver. There was enough aptitude and gobs of positive attitude -- I'd jump in that right hand seat anytime.
So I guess the moral of the story -- if you aren't connecting -- either change your tact, adjust your expectations (as you did), or swap instructors.
cheers,
Mike
He reached out to me as I was initially assigned to her and I had an open slot.
I jumped in -- found out she was just a bit older than my daughter -- and they ad similar interests -- so I made a connection. I tried to play it as, lets just go drive... I'll do the hard work for you.
I focussed on keeping her safe (don't lift, gas gas gas) and lowering the tasks she had to deal with initially (primarily looking out for and managing traffic). I also reduced shifting significantly. I let her run at the pace she wanted to go. When she put things together -- I cheerleaded to keep her spirits up.
By the end of the day -- she was doing fine. The rest of the weekend she was in a green only group and I added traffic management and working the line. By the end of day 2 she was mid-pack, having a good time and getting quicker. At this point she was not overwhelmed -- in fact she was prone to making "impatient" mistakes. Early Apex, not slowing enough, etc. But even her mistakes were at the slower corners with plenty of track out (and the occasional speed bump -- to remind her of her mistake), but overall even when pushing wide, she was in control of the car. In the sections of the track where making a mistake or loosing focus could be a bigger problem -- I coached her through those sections. Some folks have to make the mistakes to learn, I'm definitely one of those (and still am!)
We ended up having a great time -- I'm sure given seat time she'll be a decent driver. There was enough aptitude and gobs of positive attitude -- I'd jump in that right hand seat anytime.
So I guess the moral of the story -- if you aren't connecting -- either change your tact, adjust your expectations (as you did), or swap instructors.
cheers,
Mike
05-25-2017, 06:49 PM
#42
You HAVE to zoom OUT before you can zoom back in...
First, the concept of using all the road is foreign to those that have driven in one lane all their lives.
Second, that concept has to be laid as a foundation first, THEN learning the ORDER and SEVERITY of the turns next, if only for safety's sake.
If you begin with proper turn-in, apex and track out detail and landmarks for each corner first, more than a few novices will get overwhelmed very quickly... just sayin'
First, the concept of using all the road is foreign to those that have driven in one lane all their lives.
Second, that concept has to be laid as a foundation first, THEN learning the ORDER and SEVERITY of the turns next, if only for safety's sake.
If you begin with proper turn-in, apex and track out detail and landmarks for each corner first, more than a few novices will get overwhelmed very quickly... just sayin'
First timers are sometimes so overwhelmed that they have no bandwith left for communication. If you can't get through with words then you need to try something else. If the guy was cautious enough to be safe, then letting him explore a little on his own can be good. Let him find a corner he likes and start there.
05-25-2017, 08:14 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
Seb, it says a lot about you that you feel so disappointed with yourself. You evidently hold yourself to a very high standard. A good quality that will serve you well in life!
I'm sorry you didn't mention your student struggles to one of the more experienced instructors who were there with you. We've all had our own struggles with students over the years and we might have been able to offer some advice. I'm not saying we could have solved your issues. But we might have helped you understand that you can't hit a grand slam every time you get up to bat. Umm, should I be giving you a hockey analogy?? Either way, nice to meet you up there. Don't let this get you down.
I'm sorry you didn't mention your student struggles to one of the more experienced instructors who were there with you. We've all had our own struggles with students over the years and we might have been able to offer some advice. I'm not saying we could have solved your issues. But we might have helped you understand that you can't hit a grand slam every time you get up to bat. Umm, should I be giving you a hockey analogy?? Either way, nice to meet you up there. Don't let this get you down.
05-25-2017, 08:15 PM
#44
Lot of good advices and help guys, thanks a lot.
I brought one of my race car and didnt have a passenger seat to show him.
During 2nd day, i thought in my head, i should drive his car for a few laps again and show him the proper way and i didnt do it. that was a mistake.
I mentor the white run group also, which is the first solo group. So, i ride in a lot of cars as mentionned earlier. I do refresh them the basic cause they often forget.
I was also giving him hands signal to help.
I care about my students a lot, their improvement till black run group.
This was a little failure to me.....
I brought one of my race car and didnt have a passenger seat to show him.
During 2nd day, i thought in my head, i should drive his car for a few laps again and show him the proper way and i didnt do it. that was a mistake.
I mentor the white run group also, which is the first solo group. So, i ride in a lot of cars as mentionned earlier. I do refresh them the basic cause they often forget.
I was also giving him hands signal to help.
I care about my students a lot, their improvement till black run group.
This was a little failure to me.....
Don't beat yourself up! You are a great instructor and you take the job to heart. Did he have fun?
Learning curves will always vary...and yes, you should have drove his car again to show him the line!(****, I would have done it at the end of day 1 and start of day 2 and so on)
Remember my white student with the blue GT3...
See you in June
Johnathan, you beat me to it! Great spending time with you!
05-26-2017, 12:13 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 13,370
Received 4,555 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
Hi guys, previous DE weekend, i had a 60yo student for his 1st time ever on track. This is my 2nd year instructing(im 29yo)
What a tough time. Let me tell you.
Im jumping in so many students cars to help them and eveyone are receptive, understanding and put my stuff in application and they are very pleased.
Guy was a gentleman ans very trill do put his car in track.
I showed him the line for a few laps on the 1st session. I keep repeting again and again.
He was early apex, tracking out mid track, had no clue what was the next turn, trouble with hands on steering, not watching mirrors.
He was happy, he had fun, understood me but just couldn't do it....
The last 2 session, i somehow give up in my mind and let him have fun in my control.
I mean, i wasnt correcting him every damn turn.
So what do you do in a situation like that.
Im damn patient, but this time, i was exhausted. Went to bed at 8:00 pm on both nights lol
What a tough time. Let me tell you.
Im jumping in so many students cars to help them and eveyone are receptive, understanding and put my stuff in application and they are very pleased.
Guy was a gentleman ans very trill do put his car in track.
I showed him the line for a few laps on the 1st session. I keep repeting again and again.
He was early apex, tracking out mid track, had no clue what was the next turn, trouble with hands on steering, not watching mirrors.
He was happy, he had fun, understood me but just couldn't do it....
The last 2 session, i somehow give up in my mind and let him have fun in my control.
I mean, i wasnt correcting him every damn turn.
So what do you do in a situation like that.
Im damn patient, but this time, i was exhausted. Went to bed at 8:00 pm on both nights lol
This isn't simply a case of a novice student. There are some students (and they do tend to be older and nice people) who truly don't have a knack for driving, are very inconsistent from lap to lap, and make limited progress even with the best instructors. They also tend to overestimate their driving ability (not out of arrogance, they're just not aware of how poorly they're driving).
Since you won't experience the rewards of seeing these students make much progress, you just need to be satisfied with keeping them (and you) safe and enabling them to have some fun. Interestingly enough, these students do tend to have fun and continue to do track events.