Crash: Instructor braces himself with his feet on the dash.
05-23-2017, 07:21 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
It would be interesting to get the instructor perspective.
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
05-23-2017, 07:31 PM
#32
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor
It would be interesting to get the instructor perspective.
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
05-23-2017, 07:39 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
It would be interesting to get the instructor perspective.
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
timing is critical expecially in the stock cars where the RPM might not fall as fast as a race car engine when clutch is put in.... a slight delay will usually stop the overrev when clutch is released. (meaning) when the clutch is released and the RPM is matched there is no slip. and then, why would there be? and if there was, it would be seen on downshifts, AND usually would rev-away, where it wouldnt synchronize until you let up on the power.
05-23-2017, 07:40 PM
#35
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I hope no one was hurt.
Maybe not fair to judge the instructor too harshly based on the limited info from the video clip.
Driver's reaction wasn't good, but that's not uncommon, even with fairly experienced drivers unless they've mentally rehearsed how to handle this kind of situation or have firsthand experience dealing with offs.
That barrier came up mighty quickly. Thank goodness there were belted tires there, though the configuration of the tires is questionable.
Maybe not fair to judge the instructor too harshly based on the limited info from the video clip.
Driver's reaction wasn't good, but that's not uncommon, even with fairly experienced drivers unless they've mentally rehearsed how to handle this kind of situation or have firsthand experience dealing with offs.
That barrier came up mighty quickly. Thank goodness there were belted tires there, though the configuration of the tires is questionable.
05-23-2017, 07:42 PM
#36
It would be interesting to get the instructor perspective.
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
-Mike
05-23-2017, 07:49 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
IMHO, this is a rookie mistake related to passing. Ideally, get back on-line after the pass. Which he didn't. He made the pass but then found himself in the middle/right of the track when he's probably used to being on far left at turn entry.
Novice would obviously would need to overslow and walk it through and not be concerned about slowing down cars behind - who just gave pass signal. (Novices are always over-concerned about keeping up top speed after making a pass, and not slowing down the car that they just passed, even in that first turn. That's a mindset that the instructor needs to be aware of, and that he needs to break for the novice, or else this result!)
Looking again, I'd be pointing left big-time during that pass. That's my style as an instructor. If he didn't get left (as the driver did not in video), I'd be making the patting down motion to slow. Done each of these many times, lap after lap when needed.
The instructor needs to be on high alert when the novice student makes that sort-of-late pass and is not getting back on-line!
Novice would obviously would need to overslow and walk it through and not be concerned about slowing down cars behind - who just gave pass signal. (Novices are always over-concerned about keeping up top speed after making a pass, and not slowing down the car that they just passed, even in that first turn. That's a mindset that the instructor needs to be aware of, and that he needs to break for the novice, or else this result!)
Looking again, I'd be pointing left big-time during that pass. That's my style as an instructor. If he didn't get left (as the driver did not in video), I'd be making the patting down motion to slow. Done each of these many times, lap after lap when needed.
The instructor needs to be on high alert when the novice student makes that sort-of-late pass and is not getting back on-line!
so, hand signals of "brakes" are to be done near all turns and re-emphasized if its not being done.. i was pushing my feet against the wall just watching knowing what was about to happen. again, he had PLENTY of time and was messing with lousy timied and excuted shifts which delay'ed any slow down. then , as you saw, in a last ditch effort, tried to turn a locked up set of front tires.
the moral of the story is the primary focus should be braking going into a turn from a high speed straight. brake.... slow, shift (while braking if possible) and shift again if needed, then turn in. the instructor was on a ride. he didnt take action and you see the result. very sad for the student to lose a nice car.
Not a fan of his lines anywhere in that video. The jerking steering going into the turn was indecision at the wrong time. ouch. As for the instructor. The two feet on the dash is part one of the Hungarian sport racing associations teaching protocol. Also known as the Budapest safety procedure. Part two is to quickly bend at the waste so as to place your head between the legs and pucker up in the buttocks region. 
I always ask my students about their driving experience and to drive a lap or two focusing on clean lines, braking points while learning track. This helps me assess skill level and what to add that might help. Sometime please accelerate, but more often its "focus on your lines and get your braking done a little earlier while focusing on being smooth.
It was clear this guy was a true rookie. Hot inside pass leading up to poor line entering high speed turn, missed rpm match on down shift, leads to panic, over braking while turning, then fights the wheel while on the brake...
Would like to hear from the instructor. First lap on cold tires too?
It was clear this guy was a true rookie. Hot inside pass leading up to poor line entering high speed turn, missed rpm match on down shift, leads to panic, over braking while turning, then fights the wheel while on the brake...
Would like to hear from the instructor. First lap on cold tires too?
If you look at the top of that video it says S52. It wouldn't surprise me if also had the E36 M3 transmission it it as well, so from a power train perspective, it is the same as your old ride.
Again, what a waste of a nice car - about as useful as throwing $10K into a burn barrel and lighting it up. Man, if he had just pumped the brakes it would have ended better.
-Mike
Again, what a waste of a nice car - about as useful as throwing $10K into a burn barrel and lighting it up. Man, if he had just pumped the brakes it would have ended better.
-Mike
)
05-23-2017, 07:58 PM
#38
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I wonder why that car folded up like a cheap suit. But, am I the only one that has taught ALL my students how to successfully complete an off line late pass? Granted that it is done at a lower speed and without traffic.
05-23-2017, 08:05 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Mike, I think you're right. It sounded just like your old car. And those stock clutched all slip when they get really worn. Mine started to do it with the stock clutch which is why I put in a better clutch. Problem immediately solved! And it didn't matter how quickly or slowly I shifted in my car or yours. It was always there even leaving the pits. Wonder if that slip aided the missed down shift in this video?
:21 big slips on all shifts on and before this one. induced by timing
3:11. same type of shift, big slip because of timing.
3:40. same type of shift, no slip a perfect shift...
its easy to not be patient shifting a BMW and other cars where the RPM doesnt drop quickly. but, when you are as you were at 3:34 and the next shift, it grabs perfectly.
05-23-2017, 08:19 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
This BMW driver said that he lost the brakes.
if so, its another reason to get those shifts down.. Being in gear could save your life or car someday if that is what happened. i dont think thats what happened, as it clearly sounded like lock up and the engine was down to idle speed. However, anything is possible.
if so, its another reason to get those shifts down.. Being in gear could save your life or car someday if that is what happened. i dont think thats what happened, as it clearly sounded like lock up and the engine was down to idle speed. However, anything is possible.
05-23-2017, 08:28 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Not sure I agree with the comments to move the car back left before turning in on such a late pass. See this happen too often in DEs, cutting off the car being passed in order to get back left before turn in. A late pass like that requires more braking, so that turn in from the middle of the track is possible.
05-23-2017, 08:29 PM
#42
Originally Posted by mark kibort
all joking a side.... the slip cant cause or change a downshift. his clutch wasnt slipping on downshifts which imparts a greater force on the driveline. maybe what you felt on your clutch, was a timing thing. ive been in numerous BMWs that are shifted like this, even 928s.... its a timing thing, even if a clutch is worn, it will not do that over rev sound.. try it and you willl see. im 95% sure , but you can try a differnet technique yourself. plus, you can see you did multiple shifts in the video where that didnt happen.. thats a big clue right there.the clutches are pretty strong as far as clamping force. stock im talking, but most elect to get the lightweight stuff when going the race car direction.
timing is critical expecially in the stock cars where the RPM might not fall as fast as a race car engine when clutch is put in.... a slight delay will usually stop the overrev when clutch is released. (meaning) when the clutch is released and the RPM is matched there is no slip. and then, why would there be? and if there was, it would be seen on downshifts, AND usually would rev-away, where it wouldnt synchronize until you let up on the power.
timing is critical expecially in the stock cars where the RPM might not fall as fast as a race car engine when clutch is put in.... a slight delay will usually stop the overrev when clutch is released. (meaning) when the clutch is released and the RPM is matched there is no slip. and then, why would there be? and if there was, it would be seen on downshifts, AND usually would rev-away, where it wouldnt synchronize until you let up on the power.
I know light weight flywheels are pretty common among racers but i just can't help feel that it messes with balance of crank and creates issues down the road. I am sticking with dual mass flywheel .
05-23-2017, 08:31 PM
#43
Not sure I agree with the comments to move the car back left before turning in on such a late pass. See this happen too often in DEs, cutting off the car being passed in order to get back left before turn in. A late pass like that requires more braking, so that turn in from the middle of the track is possible.
05-23-2017, 08:35 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Notice how the instructor braces himself with his feet on the dash.
Is this common practice? Skip to :30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu5tmx9YTBo
Is this common practice? Skip to :30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu5tmx9YTBo
05-23-2017, 08:48 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
I hope no one was hurt.
Maybe not fair to judge the instructor too harshly based on the limited info from the video clip.
Driver's reaction wasn't good, but that's not uncommon, even with fairly experienced drivers unless they've mentally rehearsed how to handle this kind of situation or have firsthand experience dealing with offs.
That barrier came up mighty quickly. Thank goodness there were belted tires there, though the configuration of the tires is questionable.
Maybe not fair to judge the instructor too harshly based on the limited info from the video clip.
Driver's reaction wasn't good, but that's not uncommon, even with fairly experienced drivers unless they've mentally rehearsed how to handle this kind of situation or have firsthand experience dealing with offs.
That barrier came up mighty quickly. Thank goodness there were belted tires there, though the configuration of the tires is questionable.
Even the beginner/novice driver knows a) after a pass leading into a high speed turn get back to race line or (over) brake the car for the new line your in b) if you blow the down shift and cook the corner brake hard in a straight line then off brakes and attempt to drive it through the corner. Applying brakes while trying to turn is first day novice error.
Not being hard on the driver but this is the ABC of driving.
It appears to me he had time to correct after his first two mistakes. It was the third mistake all brakes while sawing the wheel thinking his car might turn. There was room while he was still on the track to let off brake and give the car a chance to hook up and make the turn while scrubbing off excess speed enough to keep it off the wall.
Glad to hear no one was hurt.
Great teaching video for instructors and novice drivers.