hsmith

Has anyone done open lapping at PMP? Its limited to max 40 entries however, there is a PMP HPDE school and a club member day so i'm not sure the total number of potential cars on track at any given time.

I'm considering open lapping as an alternative to running with an HPDE organization like SCDA. I've noticed in the past few years the run group, advanced (however i'm sure its the same for all run groups) are getting too large in some instances.

RickBetterley

I did last year. Mixed emotions. Very few cars attending or on track at any given time. But a couple of the cars in the advanced group were far from ready for advanced. Super slow, over-braking, very inexperienced.
So you might want to check with the organizers whether they are properly vetting the advanced drivers.
Not saying its not worth attending, only that (at least last June) they still had some organizing improvements.
Hope this helps

hsmith

Thank you for your feedback. That is what i was afraid of.

I wish there was an experienced only small run group track day club. I would gladly pay more for a safer more enjoyable experience.

roketman

I have done several open track days with them.I have a had a blast with tons of track time.
I have had no safety issues. It is a wonderful track in my book.Be your own best judge.The place gets better and better!

hsmith

Anyone attending Palmer open lapping on June 2nd? I am planning on attending.

dgrobs

I run about 15 member days/season at PMP. While most are member only days, some of those days are combined with the open lapping days. I have not run into any safety issues where other drivers are concerned. Some of those days are even combined with driver school days and arrive and drive days, either with or without an instructor, and still, no safety issues with other drivers.

As for member only days, those are by far the best. Done 3 so far this season (planning on 15 to 20), and basically have had the track to myself for the most part. You pit out and in at your convenience. You can run for 8 hours if you like (I do not recommend that though). There are also runs into West Ware for fuel. There are no fuel pumps at the track as of yet. Fuel runs are 15-20 minutes round trip.

During a typical member day, track goes hot at 9 and cold at 5. I normally do 20-25 minutes sessions, a couple an hour. It's plenty of seat time, and by the time the track goes cold, I have had enough for the day.

If you are looking for 100% clean laps at Palmers and lots of track time, the best way to ensure that is to ask a club member to sell you a guest pass. More expensive than open lapping (I think), but you will have much more space (and time) on the track.

I will not be at PMP on 6/2. Have some other DE obligations Thursday-Saturday. Would have loved to meet up with you. Maybe another day later in the season.

Go for it on 6/2 and judge for yourself. I'd bet you have a blast and will be back.
Wonderful track that's getting better every season. More curbing, more track tires (I think Chris told me 7500 new tires but he coulda said 2500 more), and the real bathrooms and showers are finally open. No more porto johns.

Go for it on 6/2, and report back on your experience. Be safe and enjoy......

Jas0nn

Have they made any safety improvements to the track itself?

dgrobs

Hi Jason,

More curbing and more tires in front of the walls, but not sure what other safety improvements you are referring to beyond that. New pavement? Wider runoff space?

The track is what it is. The blind elevation changes, the lack of run off space, the towering rock walls, the very late and blind apexes, etc. are all still part of Palmers. Always will be.

What safety improvements are you looking for? I will answer the best i can if I know what you're looking for?

Please keep in mind I am only a member and fan of the place, not an employee.

It's a very technical track as you already know and clearly built more for technicality and cornering ability than for speed.

Also, I am not a full blown expert racecar driver. Advanced, maybe. Mario Andretti, not even close. I do know for a fact that PMP has made me a better track (and street) driver.

It has never been and never will be a beginners DE track. Just not what it is.

What safety improvements are you referring to? I can always pass along suggestions to management. I am there quite a bit with my fellow members and friends.

Jas0nn

Without derailing this thread, I think the safety concerns at Palmer are a lot more serious than you suggest, and shouldn't written-off by saying "that's just how the track is laid out."

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I believe that you should not be able to hit a rock-wall on a race track. We had a very serious accident last year in one of the series that I run where a very simple mistake resulted in an accident that was made far worse because of the rock wall on driver's left at T15. And then, it was only compounded by a totally inadequate response by the safety teams on hand - who, for example, did not even have the appropriate bandages to treat burns.

I know of one series that will not be racing there this year because of that - and highly suspect another made the same decision (its noticeably absent from the calendar this year, though I don't have the same perspective into the precise reason).

The doesn't mean it doesn't have great potential as a track though - I hope to go back (and even race) there sometime soon. But not until they step up to a level of preparedness that both mitigates the risk for drivers (and their cars), and allows them to react to those situations when they inevitably arise.

dgrobs

I agree with everything you are saying. I am always sorry to hear about accidents and injuries on ANY track. I am sorry you had to deal with that at PMP.
Palmer's is a very technical track and small mistakes can turn into big ones very quickly, especially if those mistakes happen around walls of granite.
I am not suggesting safety concerns are not an issue at Palmers, nor should they be taken lightly. I cannot speak to, nor on behalf, of the track's management concerning their safety issues and procedures. Those are questions for them.
I can say that I do enjoy driving there very much. I do not race there. I just drive there, and I very rarely "push it" at Palmer's. Those rock walls can be very intimidating. (And very dangerous as you have clearly pointed out). I agree with you.
I also agree that you should not be able to hit a rock wall if you go off, but that's the way the track is cut into the mountain. You cannot "push it" at Palmers the way you might at other tracks.
Your safety concerns are very well warranted.
Maybe some PMP folks are reading this and could comment.
I also do know of a PCA region that took it off their DE list this season. As far as I know, that did not happen because of safety concerns. There were some other issues that I heard but will not mention here as I do not know the reasons for sure.
I did do a DE there a couple years ago and there was an accident that happened in the same turn you mentioned. Thankfully, the driver(s) walked away from that unhurt. The car, not so much.
I pretty much agree with everything you are saying though. That being said, I do love it there. It's a very unique and special place to me.
I hope the day comes when you will give it another shot.
Be safe and enjoy....

Magical Trevor

Ok, I'll take that cue!

Jas0nn, we absolutely have made safety improvements to and around the track itself. The incident you're referencing took place in a regrettable impact area which, midway through last season, we addressed with an extension of the wall running down that early part of the main straight on drivers' left. There has also been nearly 8000 more tires bundled/banded and positioned in front of said walls around the circuit, with a mind to running events clockwise in the near future but also supplementing impact areas which are found in the current counter-clockwise setup. This has added at least a quarter-mile's worth of additional linear coverage at corner exits, both "outside" and "inside".

Work continues, too: as we've avoided the drought conditions of the last two seasons (thus far), we've been able to put the best effort yet into establishing good grass coverage trackside which should cut down on debris entering the course from "dropped wheels", or otherwise. It is still in the plans to add much more "deterrent curbing" to further cut down on debris and pavement drop-offs. And fortunately, with the modular nature of our walls, improvements are sure to be made over time, especially with the commencement of clockwise events.

-Track Employee Trevor

The Fat Kid

I will be there tomorrow. I am actually doing the "arrive and drive"; it will be my first track day and figured I would have more fun learning on someone else's car. I will probably take the 911 back for a PCA track day in the fall.

I will send you a PM.

dgrobs

So, just out of curiosity, how did it go at Palmers this past open lapping day (for those few who went)?
Was it enjoyable and educational? Intimidating? Everything you thought it would be? Not nearly what you thought it would be?
How many people were on track during your laps?
Was there a big difference in the ability level of the drivers on the track at any one time?

Again, just for my own curiosity.

Thanks...