winders

What is the root problem here though? Hint: It's not the nannies being off......

Berringer

Not warming up things up? Car and tires, head, body.

mark kibort

Its all car control.. things dont need to be warmed up. drivers should KNOW how to control the car. nannies on all the time, will never allow for the basic skill set to be developed.

LuigiVampa

Well, I would say knowing that your tires are not warmed up is part of knowing car control.

How many DEs have people here been to when someone wrecks in the first 1-3 laps in the first session? I've seen it more times than I care to remember.

yer_man

As a neophyte with zero hours of track time, I have a naïve question: do modern race cars (F1, Indy, stock, etc.) have traction control systems?

If the first question wasn't dumb enough (again, neophyte here!), I'll double down: if modern race cars DO have some types of traction control systems, do the rules for various types of racing require them to be on during the race?

Thanks...

Wild Weasel

I expect that if the rules allowed for it, EVERY driver would use modern traction control systems (dialed in for racing) on their cars. I believe most series' have rules in place disallowing it.

F1 used to have them and then banned them. A few years back it was rumoured that Red Bull had found some clever way around the rules to allow the car to behave in certain instances as though it had traction control. This was very controversial.

User 52121

I appreciate and applaud your responses... but I think it highlights the concerns I've tried to express over the nannies in general.

Re your #1 above... the challenge is that the modern systems (as a few others have stated, not just me) you cannot tell when they're intervening. When you can "tell" it's because you REALLY screwed up.

And IMO this is where I have concerns, tied together with what you posted below... about progressing to a speed where turning them OFF can be dangerous, as you're now running at a speed which, for your given ability level, *requires* the nannies.

This is exactly my concern. If I may think about it in math terms...

... and by your own admission, nanny assistance is > 0. Which means that, until nanny assistance = 0, you're in too high of a run group and/or running at a pace that your driver ability alone can maintain. And the challenge is that modern systems make it difficult to prove that nanny assistance = 0 while it's engaged, because it can be so seamless. So suddenly switching nannies off, and attempting to run your usual pace... can have disastrous results.

Now you might say "Well I'll dial it back" but ... dial it back, how much?



But the challenge here is: while you're managing slip angles, under/oversteer, etc... how much of that management is coming from the "driver ability" side of the equation, vs. the nanny side of the equation? Because I believe, especially with modern cars, cars with PTV, PDCC, Sports Chrono, etc. is that they're not essentially completely "hands off". They're working and aiding and still providing minor corrections.

I don't mean to jump on you (I hope you don't take it that way) but you've presented your POV well and IMO it's the closest I've seen to someone driving home the point I've tried to make with other instructors in my region.

winders

I am with Omni all the way here. The nannies allow drivers to drive faster they otherwise could and certainly should.

If we are talking about "Driver Education", driving with nannies on is not driver education in the proper sense. Nannies do not help the drivers learn to control their cars. If we are relying on nannies to protect the driving instructors, the driving instructors should be a doing a better job of controlling their students. If the students don't listen, get out of the damn car. If the drivers are relying on nannies to save their butts, they are driving above their heads.

If it were me, the rule would be nannies off. Nannies are great for the street for idiots that don't know what they are doing and need their asses saved. On the track, one should be driving under control gradually learning the limits of themselves and their car. Why should a driver learn to drive with nannies on and then have to relearn how to drive their car with nannies off? especially when what once felt comfortable may now be dangerous. I just don't get the logic and I am not stupid.

DTMiller

..

Berringer

Omni, I'm with you 98%... let's storm the hill:
1. I don't believe that some one like me wouldn't know what dialing it back means. For all intents and purposes I'm hurling my body and a box of $100k of my hard earned bread at high speed. I would definitely build back up and I truly believe almost everyone (except your buddy) who was driving at that pace (level) could do it.
2. I think what we are agreeing on is that there is a new level of technology that has to be taken into consideration as we look at how HPDE and instructing evolves, and it's almost all based on the students car and it should redefine the way we classify and progress the student.

You know what, Scott, I don't think you're stupid. ( I also don't think you care if I did think you're stupid. ) I do; however think you are trying to hold on to an unattainable supreme utopia because today's student environment will rarely exist to meet your standard due to the hardware involved. Not trying to dog on you, I know you have forgotten more about driving on the track than I will probably ever know (maybe because of this topic) but the point was: these assistants exist now. To Omni's point, they exist whether you turn off the systems or not, so the drum beating about learning car control in an analog car is mute unless you're at race school.
My main point was this: these assistants (I'm not saying nannies either because it bruises my ego) are making drivers faster, quicker, which is the opposite of your assertion if I'm reading this right.
The reason is that one can learn high speed skills and feel in a "muted" sense, while still feeling them. The danger lies in a student that goes from a factory 997/987/991/981 car to a SPC or cup car (forget about cars like yours), where the difference is huge. That same danger just doesn't exist in the example of a student who progresses in their own modern car.
This is where I'm at. Am I going to jump in race prepped aircooled 911 and go full bore right off the bat, hell no. But the more I back off the assistants that are available to turn off, I can dial each of the corresponding skills in quicker in my car. Eventually they will be gone and I can start off in a race car, if I choose to, from a great position with an honest expectation of what I'm getting into.

Great conversation, thanks guys.

Berringer

And geesh my posts have gotten long. Do I need some charts or graphs or something?

winders

Makes the drivers faster or allows the drivers to drive faster? That's a huge difference!

The "assistants" allow less skilled drivers drive faster, yes. When you switch them off, the drivers are now driving cars that they have no idea how to control at the speeds they were driving. Essentially, they are driving a different car yet subconsciously they think they are driving the same car.

RobertR1

The trend of ETA: Electronic Traction Assistance (my new acronym to replace nannies!) is going to get stronger as cars are designed with the systems in mind. Turning them completely off is not even possible in some vehicles.

The problem I think you're eluding to is the false sense of confidence these drivers are achieving relying on ETA systems to accelerate their learning curve.

The high confidence is hollow and if they were to drive in a car like yours, they'll likely lose control and not really sure how or why it happened. Which means we have some very high risk drivers out there driving on hope than talent.

It's impossible to learn change the trends of technology so I think a few items can help:

1. As newer cars are coming with Track apps and such, mapping out the times an ETA system kicked in over the course of a lap would help the driver and their instructor know where to improve. As stated, these systems can interact without any dashboard indication or a feel by the driver. It's important to know when and where the system kicked in. The manufacturers would have to step up and update the software accordingly. The data is already captured somewhere, it just need to be aggregated.

2. As these systems are sophisticated, perhaps there is a potential to dial them down progressively. The PTM system form Chevrolet does a good job with this from my experience in a Camaro before I moved. The criteria to moving up in driving groups could be to in combination with winding down systems while maintaining pace, line and smoothness. Then you know the student is progressing in the right direction and with the step down method, you're limiting the risk for everyone involved.

Reducing ETA systems in a progressive manner is a win win for both sides. From a commercial standpoint, telling newer drivers in high hp cars to turn everything off from day 1 will likely harm repeat business as the intimation factor will send most people home. Understandably so.

LuigiVampa

I'm with you on the side of this issue for the most part, but I don't think there is a 1:1 correlation between nannies and skill. Another thread had a link to an article where Max Verstappen (F1 driver) was learning how to heel/toe. No one would call him untalented or slow.

That being said, I think for most of us club racers and DE drivers, we will never learn properly until we spend some time on the track and skid pad with the nannies turned off. There are some esteemed coaches here who disagree, but my experience has been otherwise. I think my time driving a 944, and with a Miata on a skid pad, was worth its weight in gold.

Qwickrick

Big fan of both skidpads and Miatas. I rent a Miata MX5 Cup every year for DMTD at Sebring.
Older ones didn't even have ABS.