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Oh sorry, I was confusing turn 7 at Thunderhill with the kink/8. I didn't realize turn 7 was actually a corner.
If you're getting this far into your driving and want to continue to make big gains in your ability, you should invest in some data and a bit of professional coaching.
I think Mike is right, but I suggest that as a second step. Based on what you have posted, I think you may best benefit from some fundamentals before digging into data. In car video, and some good instruction. This could come from a "coach," but I don't think you need to try to hire a racing coach.
One of my old friends was CDI for GGR for a number of years. I am pretty sure that he drove a street car for all or most of his tenure as GGR CDI.
(He also made an infamous animated track day video).
I can ping him to see who he'd recommend amongst the current GGR crowd.
I have a pretty good network and can maybe match you up with someone that can help you.
I can also recommend the GGR Thunderhill Track Guide that was created by Brad Maker and Hank Watts. If you want/need a copy, I can send one to you. These guys spent a lot of time on this project, and it shows.
Hank wrote a great book, which you should have in your collection.
Further...
Turns 1, 2, 7 and 8 at Thunderhill are amongst the area's best places to hone vision skills. Especially 1 and 2. When the track opened, this was readily apparent from the start, and we developed ways to work with students to get their eyes up.
I don't know how much experience you have, but it sounds like you still need to work on some basics, both on the track and off.
Including a better understanding of the theories involved.
The "seat of the pants" feeling you can get in these corners can contribute to a feeling of impending doom, for example "I am not going to make it." Especially with a heavy street car that pushes on entry. This can contribute to what you might perceive as a vision problem.
Do you know whether your line is correct?
I suggest trying to run those tracks with an organization like the PCA GGR and getting some instruction from someone with plenty of experience.
I also suggest that you implement some in car video, and use it properly between sessions and away from the track. Work with others who know what they are doing and can relate to your car.
I have a lot of experience with all of the corners you have mentioned. Now... more than a couple of decades.
Some good advice here, some bad.
Saying you don't need to apex a corner based on hp is just plain wrong and reflects a lack of basic knowledge.
When people give advice like this in these forums, I shudder.
Go back to basics.
You don't need to run to the inside Apex of t7 and don't need anywhere near the total run out in most cars this comes from the person who won the PCA series set a handful of track records and uses data to determine lines and lap time
Often, I get people situated in their cars, then install a 6" long clear cellophane tape strip across laterally from C-pillar towards the centerline, such that the driver is seeing a point on the road 200-300 feet away from the front of the car. Good gauge and great reminder.
Fast corners are daunting because, as we go quicker, our vision tends to narrow and fall nearer to the front and side of the car, causing us to think we can't sustain the speed through the upcoming direction change. The higher your eyes, the less the "picket fence" effect and the more your MIND can "slow things down."
Good luck!
In summary you mean eyes up! That's how I interpreted the message. The further down track you are looking, the more your brain can process and avoids the narrowing field of vision. Plus you'll have to practice driving with your peripheral vision.
We have not met and I don't know your background, but I would caution anyone here about taking your blanket advice.
One of the challenges with the internet is it creates opportunities for people to give bad information.
We have not meant and I don't know anything about your training and experience, but in this case, you are wrong.
You may not understand that basics, and that's okay.
I don't know what PCA series you won or anything about your lap records (and don't really care), but that all of that is not relevant.
Wrong is wrong.
I harken back to the days before you ever drove on track.. somewhere around 20 years ago. We had a special guest at a GGR time trial. His name was Hurley. He rode in and drove a bunch of cars, including some 914's and an RSA. He consistently told many of these folks that the fastest way around turn 2 at Thunderhill was in the middle of the track.
Oh sorry, I was confusing turn 7 at Thunderhill with the kink/8. I didn't realize turn 7 was actually a corner.
If you're getting this far into your driving and want to continue to make big gains in your ability, you should invest in some data and a bit of professional coaching.
-mike
I figured you probably meant T8 . T7 is getting me close to peak Gs my street tires can handle (1.2-1.3), but is not really a corner.
I'm using data and video very diligently, and that's how I became aware of this issue in the first place. I noticed that in certain types of corners what data tells me is different from what I feel behind the wheel. So when I force myself to do what data tells me would be right in such turns (turn in earlier and carry higher speed), it works well and it's faster. I can just memorize it and "drive by a program", but that not optimal - any passing or changes in conditions of track or tires would throw me off then. I'd rather calibrate my perception to be as accurate in this type of corners as it is in others.
I drove T-hill and other California tracks with coaches and pro racers and compared data as well, and now I'm at a point where my theoretical knowledge of what to do far exceeds my ability to actually put it in practice So now I'm picking areas where what I do deviates from what I know I shoud do, and I'm figuring out ways to adjust. Sometimes it's just being aware and visualizing it done right a few dozen times. In this case it's a little more challenging. Next time I'll try looking further up, maybe with the help of a marker on the windscreen, and report back.
I like to leave myself notes in the car... In all seriousness, these are usually the last things I repeat to myself over and over while staging. I also repeat it to myself constantly while in the car. I am also constantly reminding myself to find my spot find my spot referring to points down track... Heck, my coach could barely get a word in edgewise I like to talk to myself out there LOL.
Sometimes if we know what we should be doing and we aren't we need to reinforce it until it becomes natural and we no longer have to over-think it... Just my most basic and humble contribution.
PS, anyone want to buy a nav unit
Does it happen in fast right hand turns? E.,g., T8 and T10 at Sonoma; T15 THill? How's your right eye vs left eye vision?
Wow. How did I miss this - it's definitely only left-hand turns. It's not an issue in right-hand turns. I double-checked against the data/vids, and I'm at peak Gs all the way through the turn and hitting the outside curb consistently in T15 at T-hill and T10 at Sonoma.
I'm wearing glasses and my vision is corrected to better than 20/20 in both eyes. Maybe it's related to A-pillar or Solo getting in the way? I'll try removing solo or placing it to the right rather than to the left of me.
I am not sure what you mean by "DE on the other hand, lots of experts preaching," Mr. Audipwr1. If you are referring to me, I can assure you that I have quite a bit of racing experience.
I have enjoyed this hobby since 1987... but I digress.
In any case, to the OP: It seems to me that vision may not be at the center of your challenge. It seems plausible, based on what I have read here, that you are kind of getting into your own head and maybe trying to "drive to the data."
Here are some thoughts:
1. Understand the basics. Not just that data says this or that (yours or someone else's) but what it means and what actions you can undertake. Maybe not all at once, but perhaps in steps.
It can pay to pick a few metrics. For example, exit speed (in rpm). The Going Faster video is a great help with considering exit speed, and Thunderhill is a great place to use that metric.
2. Try to get into a driving environment where the folks you are with on and off the track are primarily focused on the craft, as opposed to the experience. This is probably more difficult these days. The old GGR TT environment was great for this, as most were focused on peaking in the TT phase each weekend. Most of the paddock was focused on going faster in those days, not about cool Youtube videos and so on.
This can be accomplished in today's paddocks, but you may need to work it.
3. Focus on calibrating your ***, hands and feet. More important than a calibrated daq system.
One way to do this is to ride. My best student ever learned a lot this way, as she was able to ride with me and a faster driver with a similar car. The cars were street cars, so big and heavy like what I imagine that you drive.
How do you benchmark your performance? This can be critical for improvement.
This thread has kind of devolved into something that probably isn't going to be very helpful to the OP, but after re-reading the initial post again and if I was having this problem:
If you're flat through the corner and not using all the track-out, who cares.
If you're not flat through the corner and not using all the track-out, go faster. I can't tell you where specifically without seeing data, but you're probably over slowing on entry AND too late back to power because your brain is telling you you're on the limit (been there).
∆∆∆ nothing says luxury decor like a stack of tires
Haha... I put them to good use during the off season $10 piece of glass and they double as a table which happens to be the perfect height to stand at and have a drink.
Now that will not help the OP at all so I will back away
02-22-2017, 12:24 PM
. T7 is getting me close to peak Gs my street tires can handle (1.2-1.3), but is not really a corner.
So now I'm picking areas where what I do deviates from what I know I shoud do, and I'm figuring out ways to adjust. Sometimes it's just being aware and visualizing it done right a few dozen times. In this case it's a little more challenging. Next time I'll try looking further up, maybe with the help of a marker on the windscreen, and report back.
