Buttonwillow Past Times w/993 (2014-2016) welcome - Page 3 - Rennlist Discussion Forums



Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Buttonwillow Past Times w/993 (2014-2016) welcome

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-19-2016, 02:19 PM   #31
audipwr1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
audipwr1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,290
Default

Martin - you could probably do a 1:58.xx on nittos and a 1.55 on hoosiers

If you post up a picture of your AIM output with speed, TPS, brake pressure, and lat Gs over distance I would be happy to point out some spots

And while Anders may crush POC, he doesnt crush PCA SPB
audipwr1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 02:28 PM   #32
Martin S.
Rennlister Extraordinaire
Rennlist Member

 
Martin S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Miguel, CA
Posts: 6,978
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by audipwr1 View Post
Martin - you could probably do a 1:58.xx on nittos and a 1.55 on hoosiers. Oh Lawdy, this would be sweet.

If you post up a picture of your AIM output with speed, TPS, brake pressure, and lat Gs over distance I would be happy to point out some spots.
Thanks for the kind offer, I'll take you up on this...I have gotten rusty on AiM, had a layoff of 5 months due to some heath issues (Now corrected).


And while Anders may crush POC, he doesnt crush PCA SPB
I can't speak to this. However let me suggest you come to Willow Springs in February, and spank the POC Spec Boxster drivers. I can see what I can do to arrange a PCA/POC SPB Challenge, now this would be great fun. Let me know if this is of interest to you and you PCA pals. We could also invite the SoCal PCA Spec Boxster drivers to participate. Thanks for responding to my post.
Martin S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 02:40 PM   #33
audipwr1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
audipwr1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
I can't speak to this. However let me suggest you come to Willow Springs in February, and spank the POC Spec Boxster drivers. I can see what I can do to arrange a PCA/POC SPB Challenge, now this would be great fun. Let me know if this is of interest to you and you PCA pals. We could also invite the SoCal PCA Spec Boxster drivers to participate. Thanks for responding to my post.
No problem, happy to help.

We do race the POC guys a few times a year actually (most of them race PCA as well). Anders and Nigel raced with us in November at BW with that precise configuration in fact. They are both very fast / competent drivers (as is Vali who also occasionally gets in too), was just pointing out that 2.00 in a SPB wouldnt have gotten P1 or P2 at the last PCA race is all.

Willow is a long way away for me, but may make a trip down next year for ei
audipwr1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 02:48 PM   #34
CFGT3
Super User
 
CFGT3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 8,710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
Just back from a Speed Ventures weekend at Buttonwillow, CW 13 with the "Buttonhook" and the "Sweeper". I ran in the the second fastest group, Green Group, Open Passing., "Race Like Conditions". And by God they were. This was much more intense than the typical HPDE. Lot's of testosterone flowing in that group. That "piece of cake" 2:00 minute time eluded me by 5 seconds.

My best time, was on the last session of the weekend, a 2:05.44. After the first session on Saturday when I turned my sucky 2:13.XX, I was pretty much consistent with 2:05.XX to 2:08.XX in the third session. The weather was clear and cool, little to no wind, ideal for HP. No real excuses for less than optimal performance other than "average" driving.

I was driving:
1. 1997 993 with stock motor, 260 HP to rear wheels
2. Short 3rd - 6th
3. 245 & 275 Nitto NT-10, on 8" front and 10" rear wheels, maybe 10 heat cycles to start the first session, 18 at the conclusion of the last session.
4. Trick suspension, RS sway bars in the middle setting
5.Post session tire temps were 34 to 36 Lbs.,
5. Added weight is not helping my case: The car is getting heavier as I have added some stock interior parts back, such as a stock passenger seat, stock door panels with HiFi speakers, and package shelf with HiFi speakers, lower dash with passenger air bag. I need to weigh the car. The added weight doesn't help. Some say ever additional 100 Lbs added eats up about 7 HP...don't know if that's true. I have probably added back close to 150 Lbs. It is costing me a little.

Got my *** kicked by lots of Japanese cars, a really quick SPEC Boxster or two, and my buddy in track dedicated 1998 Carrera S with a brand new set of Hoosiers. He got a 2:00.XX The sub 2 minute times were there, but not omnipresent. I did manage top pull off some nice passes, pat on my back, please!

I will soon be looking at my AiM data logger data at the metrics, looking to quantify improvement, or degradation in the turns listed below, over the course of the weekend.

In addition to analyzing the AiM data of this past weekend (I should have done it at the rack, too lazy), here is how I think I can knock off a few seconds:
1. More aggressive alignment, now too timid, -1.6 front, -1.4 rear, sort of a 993RS alignment, essentially a street alignment. I am going to look to get as close to -3 front, and down 1/2 of a - degree rear, perhaps -2 1/2 My car is not going back to the any serious street driving for a while. This will happen in January, before the POC Willow Springs event.
2. Getting a set Hoosier R7 tires, or use a set of slight used Yohohama slicks sitting in my garage, assuming the 280 rears will fit in the wheel wells...they should with the -2.5 degrees of camber.
Improved driving such as:
A. On the gas sooner coming out of 1,
B. Don't touch the brakes on first left in Cotton Corner maze,
C. More speed on the corner just past the Cotton Corners exit,
D, Stay out a little wider on the exit of Bus Stop, minimal berm contact,
E. Keep my foot to the floor all the way through Riverside. I have done
Riverside on Hoosiers in the past, CCW, and it was no problem, foot to the floor, but I just don't trust the Nittos enough to push them to their limit at that speed, in what could be a very gnarly part of the stack, were one to go off.
F. Get on the gas as soon as possible before the apex going over Lost Hills
G. Stay wide in the "By Pass" resulting in more speed through the ESSES and down to Sunset.

My claim to glory is that I seem to be able to carry a lot of speed through Sunset, and as a result, have been able to catch faster cars going down the front straight.

There are approximately 11 sections on the 13 CW configuration. I do well on 5...so I have my work cut out for me. Quite frankly, I prefer Buttonwillow CCW...Riverside CCW does not seem so intimidating. And I could do without the "Sweeper"...there are minimal visual reference points, so I find it challenging to drive the ideal line. But at least I know that I don't know, conscious incompetence.

In spite of not delivering a personal stellar driving performance, I learned a lot, and spent some great times with good friends. I know what I have to do to improve. End of story!
If I can make some suggestions to help you on your list:

A: You can early apex T1 without any consequences. Try both trail braking into it or braking early and getting on the gas early with an earlier turn in and see how it feels next time there.

D: Take a bigger chuck out of the berm, not less. It's the unweighted side and you'll be able to carry more speed in and although it may feel like it unsettles the car, you'll be the better for it on track out.

G: I've found that staying wide in the bypass (I presume you're referring to the sweeper) is not that fast. Going in hot with trail braking and making it a double apex with a "peak" on the outside of the track about 3/4 of the way into the turn with a slight lift off the brakes will rotate the rear of a 911 and point you in the right direction to approach the esses and you'll be able to get on the gas earlier. There are no reference points on track or slightly off track for that matter, but if you keep your eyes up, there's a telephone pole in the paddock that serves as a perfect reference that lines you up for that rotation point.

For reference, my daughter raced in the PCA club race there on that configuration last month in a 944 Spec (129 rhp) and had a best lap of 2:05
CFGT3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 02:58 PM   #35
Martin S.
Rennlister Extraordinaire
Rennlist Member

 
Martin S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Miguel, CA
Posts: 6,978
Default Good points...Thanks

If I can make some suggestions to help you on your list:

A: You can early apex T1 without any consequences. Try both trail braking into it or braking early and getting on the gas early with an earlier turn in and see how it feels next time there. I am getting T1 down, I like the getting on the gas early approach, feel better to me.

D: Take a bigger chuck out of the berm, not less. It's the unweighted side and you'll be able to carry more speed in and although it may feel like it unsettles the car, you'll be the better for it on track out.

G: I've found that staying wide in the bypass (I presume you're referring to the sweeper) is not that fast. Going in hot with trail braking and making it a double apex with a "peak" on the outside of the track about 3/4 of the way into the turn with a slight lift off the brakes will rotate the rear of a 911 and point you in the right direction to approach the esses and you'll be able to get on the gas earlier. There are no reference points on track or slightly off track for that matter, but if you keep your eyes up, there's a telephone pole in the paddock that serves as a perfect reference that lines you up for that rotation point. I found the telephone pole, and your technique is solid. I tried the double apex...just couldn't nail it down: But we are on the same page here. Bypass/Sweeper..the same spot.

For reference, my daughter raced in the PCA club race there on that configuration last month in a 944 Spec (129 rhp) and had a best lap of 2:05 Congrats to get, that's a very respectable performance. That is a humbling #
Martin S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2016, 01:55 AM   #36
Sword_of_Spirit
User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dusselheim
Posts: 188
Default

I was wondering how you ended up Martin. I hear you on Riverside, everywhere else isn't too much an issue. What was your speed through there?

I'm just figuring the rhythm of the place (and car to an extent), especially if I can nail 90's + though Riverside. My alignment is far more aggressive than yours along with a bit of weight reduction. I also do a fair bit of trailing (the RS rears and dif do allow a bit rotation if aggressive) and then some left footing when possible (with gas still applied as one aught).

You'll get the 2:00.
Sword_of_Spirit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2016, 02:37 PM   #37
Martin S.
Rennlister Extraordinaire
Rennlist Member

 
Martin S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Miguel, CA
Posts: 6,978
Smile Get the 2:00.0?

Didn't get it, best time a 2:05.30 I believe....I have a few issues:
1. My car is getting heavier as I take more race stuff off and add back in stock interior,
2. Have a street alignment, -1.6 front, -1.5 rear, need to be more aggressive here, don't drive the car on the street anyway,
3. 10 heat session Nittos, need Hoosiers,
4. Average talent, have to live with that,
5. Not skilled at left foot braking.
6. That "By Pass" needs to be mastered, I did identify that lone telephone pole.
6. The 13 track configuration is atypical for my Club. Don't get to run it
that often

I have identified areas of improvement. Thanks to all for their suggestions.
Martin S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 02:51 AM   #38
959fan
User
 
959fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: sunny norcal.
Posts: 49
Default








I ran 2:07.x last week with SpeedVentures. Stock M5 brakes and stock Michelin PSS. I think I can do very low 2 minutes with the hottest street tires + track brake setup. Motor is got so much power and SMG works great at the track... stock is weight of M5 is about 4025 lbs and with is just over 4200 lbs w/driver...

I've been an HPDE instructor since 2000. Lmk if you want some in car instruction, I can probably help you go faster pretty quickly.
959fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 02:55 AM   #39
959fan
User
 
959fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: sunny norcal.
Posts: 49
Default



akmee2004 This is a cool owner his nickname is batman this is a pretty sweet Porsche 993 Turbo with old school Getty Design goodies. They show up late, put down some 1:51.x laps (the car has done 1:49's before) and then leaves early to beat the traffic. That's how some of the veterans roll! This is them packing up and me teasing them a little bit. I love the simplicity of this car just a collection of solid parts!
959fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 04:08 AM   #40
Spyerx
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Spyerx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 8,833
Default

Martin we have the track rented 4-14. Come out. See details in signature link.

Fwiw I'm 158 in my gt3 on nitto but I drive like an old lady
My buddy Danny does 158 in a 964. It's stock except for a wing and dampers.
Our buddy dan with his street 996 gt3 turned race car stock motor trans is 148 on slicks.

Low HP cars can do very respectable times at Buttonwillow.

I'd be happy if I can get to 155 on nittos.
Spyerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 12:32 PM   #41
Martin S.
Rennlister Extraordinaire
Rennlist Member

 
Martin S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Miguel, CA
Posts: 6,978
Smile Comedy of Errors

What track configuration are you running at the April 14th Private track session?

As to getting a decent time at Buttonwillow, there may be hope from after all. In November of 2016, I went on a 600 road trip. To make the car more street worthy, noting I have a MCS 3 way suspension, I dialed the compression and rebound to full soft...then made the trip, and basically forgot what I had done. Also note, checking the suspension settings IS on my track check list...I was just too lazy to do it. The trip was uneventful, just overall, miserable...big springs 700/900 make for a rough street ride, and my street tire were super noisy...packaged together, lots of cabin dBs, too many.

Fast forward to December, Buttonwillow, CW with Bypass/sweeper, the one leading up to the S's. I wasn't excessively slow, but couldn't break the 2:05 barrier. I had cooked up lots of excuses why my buddy was 5 seconds faster, (1.) he on fresh Hoosiers, me on Nittos, (2.) my mild alignment VS his track alignment, (3.) the weight I had added to the car putting the interior back it (lower dash with passenger air bag, stock door panels added back in with HiFi Speakers, stock passenger seat and he had a GT2 wing, I had a paltry mini-wing, Getty Design 3.8 RS wing. Surely these are the reasons for the 5 seconds, never even reflecting on the suspension settings. I even did Willow Springs in February, not too slow, but NOT fast..a 1:37. Back in the day I had done a 1:33....so definitely 4 seconds off the pace...I used most of the never tiring above excuse again.

After this event, and preparing for another weekend at Buttonwillow, I decided, enough was enough. I had the camber alignment spiffed up, now -3.0 front and -2.5 rear, and I got a set of Hoosiers, front used from a buddy, 245/40/18...so I had to pair them up with 275/35/18 rears...heat cycled them on Friday, bolted them up for the second session on Sunday. And in the process decided to check my suspension settings: Here I discovered what may have been a major contributing factor to my car's and my sluggish performance: 0 Compression, 0 rebound Front & Rear. Front: I usually have in 5 clicks from 0 on compression, 6 clicks from 0 on Rebound and 150 PSI in the can. And in the rear, 6 from 0 compression and 8 from 0 rebound, 175 PSI in the can.

I re-discovered the 0/0 settings all around...made the appropriate adjustments, added the Hoosiers, and voila, knocked off about 4 seconds, racking up a 2:07.XX for CW 1, full course, including Star Mazda. With the third session coming up, I am ready for a 2:05.XX or better....damn, a front wheel bearing went bad. It had been noisy up front over the weekend, thought it was the tires...it couldn't be a wheel bearing, could it? I would have noticed it when I changed out the tires...but apparently I didn't. It appears it was just time for a failure.

The long and short of it, that was the end of my day and an early track departure for me. But the good news, it appears I may not have (TTS) terminal track sluggishness. I am pondering the event on the 14th. I had better make a decision quickly before it sells out....ah screw it I am going: I just signed up with Speed District.

Note on the registration page, they offer a "Driver Instruction Packet" for an additional $60, if I purchase this, does that mean an automatic sub 2:00 minutes for me? It might just be worth it, as insurance. I am really looking forward to this event. Anyone want to share a garage with me? They are about $120 a day to be shared, $60 a piece...worth it for the shade and out of the wind. PM me if this is of interest.

PS Pics of the old "Evil" wing, and the new 60" "Good" wing.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Martin S.; 03-24-2017 at 12:25 PM.
Martin S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 12:53 PM   #42
Martin S.
Rennlister Extraordinaire
Rennlist Member

 
Martin S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Miguel, CA
Posts: 6,978
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by audipwr1 View Post
Martin - you could probably do a 1:58.xx on nittos and a 1.55 on hoosiers

If you post up a picture of your AIM output with speed, TPS, brake pressure, and lat Gs over distance I would be happy to point out some spots

And while Anders may crush POC, he doesnt crush PCA SPB
I will have my AiM SOLO DL up and running, and bringing my laptop.
Martin S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2017, 12:36 AM   #43
Sword_of_Spirit
User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dusselheim
Posts: 188
Default

Sounds like you can do 2:00 or better Martin. Keep the chin up, and trust those Nittos as they hold far more grip than most give credit (including myself at times).
Wish I could join, but I'm tied up that weekend.

As for the 964 doing 1:58, what tires?
Sword_of_Spirit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2017, 12:38 AM   #44
Sword_of_Spirit
User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dusselheim
Posts: 188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 959fan View Post
I ran 2:07.x last week with SpeedVentures. Stock M5 brakes and stock Michelin PSS. I think I can do very low 2 minutes with the hottest street tires + track brake setup. Motor is got so much power and SMG works great at the track... stock is weight of M5 is about 4025 lbs and with is just over 4200 lbs w/driver...

I've been an HPDE instructor since 2000. Lmk if you want some in car instruction, I can probably help you go faster pretty quickly.
That V10 isn't a joke nor the tranny. Stock pads?
Sword_of_Spirit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 01:26 AM   #45
Spyerx
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Spyerx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 8,833
Default

We are running cw13 on 4/14 and speed district is running cw13 on 4/15. Will be there both days.

I think Danny is on re71 or nittos or similar r comp. not Hoosiers or slicks. He drives to the track. Great driver.
Spyerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: E46 M3 race car - Spec GTS3/4 - HPDE DC640 Vehicle Marketplace 18 06-23-2016 02:50 PM
2.09 Buttonwillow 997s Cab Jaybird33 997 Forum 6 04-11-2016 05:54 PM
Cabriolet on track just as fast as your coupe Jaybird33 997 Forum 6 03-09-2016 12:02 AM
My 993 is almost home... Martin S. 993 Forum 2 10-29-2015 11:14 AM
1st Track Day @ Buttonwillow Th Dude 996 Turbo Forum 69 09-14-2015 01:26 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 08:26 AM.


Copyright ę 1998 - 2017 Rennlist.com
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
What's your question?
Send