Lap timers at fault?
10-31-2016, 08:22 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Lap timers at fault?
So our club, and probably others, emphasize DE is not racing or practice for racing. And events are not timed. However, Harry's lap timers, AIM, etc. are ubiquitous.
At our most recent event, the instructors meeting consisted of a long lecture about aggressive driving, particularly regarding expanded passing.
I wonder, with everyone so focused on getting their best lap time, if timers aren't contributing to discourteous even down right dangerous driving.
At our most recent event, the instructors meeting consisted of a long lecture about aggressive driving, particularly regarding expanded passing.
I wonder, with everyone so focused on getting their best lap time, if timers aren't contributing to discourteous even down right dangerous driving.
10-31-2016, 09:10 PM
#2
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,175
Received 3,341 Likes
on
1,896 Posts
Ok. Another great falsehood.
Lap timers, by themselves, identify laps where the driver's performance is at a higher level, on average, than other laps. They relay a metric, one comprised of tens, and even hundreds, of individual skill executions, and more importantly, pertinent decisions each lap.
If those decisions include moves and on-track behavior that is "down right dangerous," it is the driver's fault.
It is THEIR CONSCIOUS decision to be a dick or do something marginal, questionable or dangerous to themselves or others around them.
If someone is "chasing" a lap time, especially in a DE, they are missing the point. Rarely do drivers ever get a "clean" lap.
If they used their measuring devices correctly, they would be able to nail EACH corner ONCE throughout the session, then assemble a composite view that would serve as bragging rights, WITHOUT endangering themselves or others.
This is an issue for the leaders of the organization, chapter or region holding the event.
Do NOT make the mistake of blaming technology (M-App for BMW, Precision Track App and SportsChrono for Porsche, PDR for GM, ad infinitum) for errors, conscious and subconscious behavioral decisions made by people unwilling or unable to keep the culture in mind.
The beauty of errant behavior, especially at well run events, is that the miscreants can be identified and dealt with (read: excused) in short order, depending if the organizers have the backbone to do it.
The lap timers are another data point, not the cause, unless the driver loses perspective and judgement.
Lap timers, by themselves, identify laps where the driver's performance is at a higher level, on average, than other laps. They relay a metric, one comprised of tens, and even hundreds, of individual skill executions, and more importantly, pertinent decisions each lap.
If those decisions include moves and on-track behavior that is "down right dangerous," it is the driver's fault.
It is THEIR CONSCIOUS decision to be a dick or do something marginal, questionable or dangerous to themselves or others around them.
If someone is "chasing" a lap time, especially in a DE, they are missing the point. Rarely do drivers ever get a "clean" lap.
If they used their measuring devices correctly, they would be able to nail EACH corner ONCE throughout the session, then assemble a composite view that would serve as bragging rights, WITHOUT endangering themselves or others.
This is an issue for the leaders of the organization, chapter or region holding the event.
Do NOT make the mistake of blaming technology (M-App for BMW, Precision Track App and SportsChrono for Porsche, PDR for GM, ad infinitum) for errors, conscious and subconscious behavioral decisions made by people unwilling or unable to keep the culture in mind.
The beauty of errant behavior, especially at well run events, is that the miscreants can be identified and dealt with (read: excused) in short order, depending if the organizers have the backbone to do it.
The lap timers are another data point, not the cause, unless the driver loses perspective and judgement.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
10-31-2016, 09:35 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I would agree with Peter but from a different angle:
Yes, I am looking for faster laptimes. But in order to improve my laptime I need a clear lap. Amazingly in most clubs i drive with, the first two sessions of the day have lots of traffic and by afternoon everything is settled (everyone knows where they rank and line up accordingly) and usually the session gets much emptier as the day progresses.
If I have traffic in front of me, I *might* be annoyed if a clearly slower car doesn't give a point, but I already know that this will not be a good laptime.
Yes, I am looking for faster laptimes. But in order to improve my laptime I need a clear lap. Amazingly in most clubs i drive with, the first two sessions of the day have lots of traffic and by afternoon everything is settled (everyone knows where they rank and line up accordingly) and usually the session gets much emptier as the day progresses.
If I have traffic in front of me, I *might* be annoyed if a clearly slower car doesn't give a point, but I already know that this will not be a good laptime.
10-31-2016, 09:51 PM
#4
I can see both sides on this one. If you're using a lap timer that is displaying active or predictive lap times than it doesn't seem like a stretch that you'd be more inclined to push it a little harder to beat a personal best which could result in driving beyond your ability. As Peter mentions, the issue is with you as driver ultimately.
I run with NASA in their TT series. In that case, lap time matters a lot, but we also have to work together to not mess up each other's laps, so while I am trying to set the fastest lap, it's secondary to staying on track and not being a dick to the other guys on track.
I still do HPDE's to practice tracks and hang out with buddies. In those cases, while I still want to set good times, I also know it's less likely to get clean laps, so I break up my sessions into (A) improving a corner or two and (2) work passing and being passed and (3) improving situational awareness.
All that being said, the times where I have noticed "tunnel vision" - i.e. missing flags - was when I was trying to hard to catch someone. The timer was not the issue. It was red mist. Fortunately, that doesn't happen much anymore, but if I find that I am too focused on the driver ahead and cannot say for certain what each flagger was doing, it's time to go in and regroup.
I run with NASA in their TT series. In that case, lap time matters a lot, but we also have to work together to not mess up each other's laps, so while I am trying to set the fastest lap, it's secondary to staying on track and not being a dick to the other guys on track.
I still do HPDE's to practice tracks and hang out with buddies. In those cases, while I still want to set good times, I also know it's less likely to get clean laps, so I break up my sessions into (A) improving a corner or two and (2) work passing and being passed and (3) improving situational awareness.
All that being said, the times where I have noticed "tunnel vision" - i.e. missing flags - was when I was trying to hard to catch someone. The timer was not the issue. It was red mist. Fortunately, that doesn't happen much anymore, but if I find that I am too focused on the driver ahead and cannot say for certain what each flagger was doing, it's time to go in and regroup.
10-31-2016, 09:59 PM
#5
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,175
Received 3,341 Likes
on
1,896 Posts
I can see both sides on this one. If you're using a lap timer that is displaying active or predictive lap times than it doesn't seem like a stretch that you'd be more inclined to push it a little harder to beat a personal best which could result in driving beyond your ability. As Peter mentions, the issue is with you as driver ultimately.
I run with NASA in their TT series. In that case, lap time matters a lot, but we also have to work together to not mess up each other's laps, so while I am trying to set the fastest lap, it's secondary to staying on track and not being a dick to the other guys on track.
I still do HPDE's to practice tracks and hang out with buddies. In those cases, while I still want to set good times, I also know it's less likely to get clean laps, so I break up my sessions into (A) improving a corner or two and (2) work passing and being passed and (3) improving situational awareness.
All that being said, the times where I have noticed "tunnel vision" - i.e. missing flags - was when I was trying to hard to catch someone. The timer was not the issue. It was red mist. Fortunately, that doesn't happen much anymore, but if I find that I am too focused on the driver ahead and cannot say for certain what each flagger was doing, it's time to go in and regroup.
I run with NASA in their TT series. In that case, lap time matters a lot, but we also have to work together to not mess up each other's laps, so while I am trying to set the fastest lap, it's secondary to staying on track and not being a dick to the other guys on track.
I still do HPDE's to practice tracks and hang out with buddies. In those cases, while I still want to set good times, I also know it's less likely to get clean laps, so I break up my sessions into (A) improving a corner or two and (2) work passing and being passed and (3) improving situational awareness.
All that being said, the times where I have noticed "tunnel vision" - i.e. missing flags - was when I was trying to hard to catch someone. The timer was not the issue. It was red mist. Fortunately, that doesn't happen much anymore, but if I find that I am too focused on the driver ahead and cannot say for certain what each flagger was doing, it's time to go in and regroup.
10-31-2016, 10:04 PM
#6
I absolutely "chase" laptimes as a way to chart progress. I drive a low-hp car and through years of experience have learned to "manage" traffic in attempting to get a free lap i.e. let the faster car pass on a straight whenever possible so I don't have to lift (because if I do lift the lap is kaput), and I do manage to get a number of free laps during the course of an event. Often this is not possible as many events allow passing in turns and holding someone up until the next straight is verboten, so you simply have to be realistic about the fact that most laps will not be free and take what is presented to you--if you get baulked by another car you practice individual turns for the remainder of that lap and start over, or simply hone your skills driving in traffic. It's all good! 
Some events are "better" than others but I've found that often enough you will get enough timed laps to be able to gauge your progress, especially during private days which tend to have fewer cars or club open track/lapping days with extended sesssions.
Gary
Some events are "better" than others but I've found that often enough you will get enough timed laps to be able to gauge your progress, especially during private days which tend to have fewer cars or club open track/lapping days with extended sesssions.Gary
10-31-2016, 10:31 PM
#7
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I used to chase lap times. While its nice to set a fast lap time, I've learned that a lap time is a combination of many different items, only one of which is actually driver skill. Heat, humidity, track condition and temperature, cloudy or sunny, condition of tires, type of tires, traffic, etc. all affect time. Accordingly, you can be smoother (i.e. - faster) getting around the track on a given day but with a slower lap time.
Curious as to what the OP is defining as aggressive driving. Is it cars going off the track or aggressive passing as the post seems to indicate? If it is aggressive passing Peter's post is spot on because that is people making the decision. You could argue the same point for people overdriving their cars.
Bottom line, I have never driven my best lap trying to do a best lap. I have always been surprised when it happens. Smooth driving is fast. Aggressive driving is slow.
Curious as to what the OP is defining as aggressive driving. Is it cars going off the track or aggressive passing as the post seems to indicate? If it is aggressive passing Peter's post is spot on because that is people making the decision. You could argue the same point for people overdriving their cars.
Bottom line, I have never driven my best lap trying to do a best lap. I have always been surprised when it happens. Smooth driving is fast. Aggressive driving is slow.
Trending Topics
10-31-2016, 11:52 PM
#8
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Contributing, yes. Cause, no. These cheap, easy lap timers are getting more and more people focused on lap times earlier, prior to focusing on the basic skills needed to drive consistently and safely. Lap times are now the primary discussion in the paddock between sessions or events on on forums (even this one), and with that comes competitiveness and pride. And with those comes the desire try hard and with that comes mistakes and aggression. These devices provide a red mist of sorts that doesn't require another car. I see guys continually with Aim systems or Harry's that can't heel toe, hit apexes consistently, threshold brake, exercise proper vision or utilize many necessary skills. This makes lap timing more dangerous. It's an exercise in self control which is not prevalent in this culture. Addictive (I meant Predictive) lap timing takes a lot of self control to keep in check. IMO.
10-31-2016, 11:56 PM
#9
Drifting
I run laptimer every session to gauge progress as others pointed out. The most fun I had was when I was driving with similar cars where we would go back and forth passing in turns or trying to catch up or keep up, with egos checked at the paddock
Lap times are a by product of good driving. It's a measure of progress but not a measure of self-worth.
Lap times are a by product of good driving. It's a measure of progress but not a measure of self-worth.
11-01-2016, 01:52 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
I run laptimer every session to gauge progress as others pointed out. The most fun I had was when I was driving with similar cars where we would go back and forth passing in turns or trying to catch up or keep up, with egos checked at the paddock
Lap times are a by product of good driving. It's a measure of progress but not a measure of self-worth.
Lap times are a by product of good driving. It's a measure of progress but not a measure of self-worth.
11-01-2016, 02:29 AM
#11
Well, I see this as an issue the instructors can help nip in the bud if they are proactive about it.
I learned from Skeet shooting but it really applies to almost any activity where learning techniques is involved. To win at shooting Skeet at a high level requires breaking all 100 targets that come out of the Skeet houses. The shooter does not have direct control over the target breaking. All the shooter has control over is the lead coming out of his gun. He needs to put that lead on a path that will intercept that target. If the shooter does that, the target will break. To put that lead on the right path shot after shot, the shooter must execute a number of fundamental mental and physical actions properly and consistently, repeatably. To shoot well, the shooter must not be thinking about the end result of breaking the 100 targets or even the one target. He needs to be focused on each fundamental step in the process in the order they occur. If the shooter does this, and executes each fundamental properly, the target will break. If he does it 100 times, all 100 targets will break.
We call this being in the moment or living in the moment. Controlling what you can control when you can control it. Focusing at the micro level minimizes pressure and anxiety. It also helps keep you focused on the technical aspects of the activity and pushes the emotional aspects away.
How does this apply to driving? Drivers that are focusing on lap times are not focusing on the fundamentals. They need to understand that they need to execute the fundamentals properly and consistently to achieve faster lap times. No matter how bad they want faster lap times they won't get them if they don't focus on fundamentals. If they execute the fundamentals properly and consistently, the faster lap times will simply happen.
So yes, have them keep the lap timers in the car. But teach them why they want to look at them after the session is over and why they should not be concerning themselves with the lap time while they are driving.
I learned from Skeet shooting but it really applies to almost any activity where learning techniques is involved. To win at shooting Skeet at a high level requires breaking all 100 targets that come out of the Skeet houses. The shooter does not have direct control over the target breaking. All the shooter has control over is the lead coming out of his gun. He needs to put that lead on a path that will intercept that target. If the shooter does that, the target will break. To put that lead on the right path shot after shot, the shooter must execute a number of fundamental mental and physical actions properly and consistently, repeatably. To shoot well, the shooter must not be thinking about the end result of breaking the 100 targets or even the one target. He needs to be focused on each fundamental step in the process in the order they occur. If the shooter does this, and executes each fundamental properly, the target will break. If he does it 100 times, all 100 targets will break.
We call this being in the moment or living in the moment. Controlling what you can control when you can control it. Focusing at the micro level minimizes pressure and anxiety. It also helps keep you focused on the technical aspects of the activity and pushes the emotional aspects away.
How does this apply to driving? Drivers that are focusing on lap times are not focusing on the fundamentals. They need to understand that they need to execute the fundamentals properly and consistently to achieve faster lap times. No matter how bad they want faster lap times they won't get them if they don't focus on fundamentals. If they execute the fundamentals properly and consistently, the faster lap times will simply happen.
So yes, have them keep the lap timers in the car. But teach them why they want to look at them after the session is over and why they should not be concerning themselves with the lap time while they are driving.
11-01-2016, 10:08 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
I also dont believe its anything to do with lap timers.
I know the region being referenced well as I run with it many times a year as well as other regions. I do a lot of ride along's in the region as well as instruct and normally spend more than 50% of my day in cars that are not mine, so have some observations as to the specific issue at hand. I can confidently say, its not lap timers.
My observation is that you are observing the long term effects of a system that was to eager to promote driver to red. Of all the groups that I observe with this region, red has by far the biggest variance in driver skill and the drivers in red take the biggest risks by not driving on line, not making apex's, taking questionable passes and an overall disregard for the other drivers on track. Its common with the red group in this region to have to park on the bumper of a slower corner for 4-5 turns and then get a late point by on corner entry. Its also common for drivers in this group to miss the flags when out in red, which also creates another dangerous situation.
Unfortunately, many drivers see the passage to Black/Red run groups as a right of passage and that their learning stops. The opposite is in fact true. A move to the upper run groups and away from all instruction and coaching is when drivers need the most help in refining the craft of driving fast on track WHILST making good reasoned decisions.
I know the region being referenced well as I run with it many times a year as well as other regions. I do a lot of ride along's in the region as well as instruct and normally spend more than 50% of my day in cars that are not mine, so have some observations as to the specific issue at hand. I can confidently say, its not lap timers.
My observation is that you are observing the long term effects of a system that was to eager to promote driver to red. Of all the groups that I observe with this region, red has by far the biggest variance in driver skill and the drivers in red take the biggest risks by not driving on line, not making apex's, taking questionable passes and an overall disregard for the other drivers on track. Its common with the red group in this region to have to park on the bumper of a slower corner for 4-5 turns and then get a late point by on corner entry. Its also common for drivers in this group to miss the flags when out in red, which also creates another dangerous situation.
Unfortunately, many drivers see the passage to Black/Red run groups as a right of passage and that their learning stops. The opposite is in fact true. A move to the upper run groups and away from all instruction and coaching is when drivers need the most help in refining the craft of driving fast on track WHILST making good reasoned decisions.
11-01-2016, 10:15 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
I experienced a great example of this a month or two ago at the Glenn.
pushed really hard for two days improved a bunch and then on my last session the brake pads where shot. I did 2-3 more laps but really focused on braking gently, smoothly, coming of the brakes smoothly, hitting apexes etc
and yes afterwards to my surprise (it shouldn't have been a surprise) my fast lap of the weekend was in those 3 laps.....
11-01-2016, 10:46 AM
#14
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,175
Received 3,341 Likes
on
1,896 Posts
I see adverse behavior on track, subjectively linked to lap time achievement, MUCH more in the advanced/instructor group than in the novice/ntermediate student groups.
If drivers were smart about it (and almost everyone I work, and have worked with, is), they would use a "plus/minus" delta indicator, which instead of displaying lap times, or even predicted times, shows the driver what works and what doesn't with instant, easy to digest and immediate feedback. AiM, Racelogic (VBOX), Race-Keeper (with the dash option) and MoTeC can ALL do this.
Bottom line, driving on the track is a great test of personal responsibility. If you lose perspective in Drivers Education event by chasing a number, then you need to evaluate why and how you approach the sport.
11-01-2016, 10:46 AM
#15
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
I agree with what has been said, along with another thought. Lap timers, whether a stop watch, old Hot Lap timer, Solo, or full MoTeC dash, are really just recorders. Stop watches record time. Solo units record time and GPS data. Full dashes record the previous info plus more. None cause a driver to do anything. They are no different than a video recorder recording what happens for playback later.
When drivers start to do stupid things, it's not because they have data or a lap timer. It's because they choose to do things that are risky, dangerous, or plain stupid. Just like when someone gets out their cell phone camera and the next guy says, "Hold my beer, watch this!"
It's up to the organization to clearly define what acceptable behavior is before the first wheel turns and to then hold people to it. If the standards for conduct are clearly defined at the beginning, most, if not all, people will follow them. Then, the organizers have to stop the people who do not follow that standard of participation.
For my personal belief on who needs data, it's the driver who is usually signed off and can drive the line consistently, has good situational awareness, is comfortable in traffic, etc. Then, they can use something like a Solo to look at their consistency (in braking, turn in, etc), their use of good braking practices, their rate of turn in, their line, etc. Then, as drivers advance, they can use data to refine their grasp on the basics. The faster you go and the better the driver, the better they execute the fundamentals.
When drivers start to do stupid things, it's not because they have data or a lap timer. It's because they choose to do things that are risky, dangerous, or plain stupid. Just like when someone gets out their cell phone camera and the next guy says, "Hold my beer, watch this!"
It's up to the organization to clearly define what acceptable behavior is before the first wheel turns and to then hold people to it. If the standards for conduct are clearly defined at the beginning, most, if not all, people will follow them. Then, the organizers have to stop the people who do not follow that standard of participation.
For my personal belief on who needs data, it's the driver who is usually signed off and can drive the line consistently, has good situational awareness, is comfortable in traffic, etc. Then, they can use something like a Solo to look at their consistency (in braking, turn in, etc), their use of good braking practices, their rate of turn in, their line, etc. Then, as drivers advance, they can use data to refine their grasp on the basics. The faster you go and the better the driver, the better they execute the fundamentals.