Mahler9th

I was there and the driver was a friend. I am pretty sure there was litigation.

I hope this thread can be removed.

I encourage all to be more sensitive about things like this.

Mark, please feel free to PM me, or send me a direct e-mail.

- Mike

mark kibort

I really dont want to comment based on LexAn's insults here.. so, we can take it off line. But , contrary to his remarks, i have access and am friends with the crew on the scene at the time.. yes, it was back in '07.

edit: from the pictures, it looks like the fire truck was hit in the rear ON the track as you approach turn 9. I could find out the answer pretty easily.
if the truck was on the track, the session might have been over. i dont know. what i do know was that the safety workers were pretty surprised they were hit.

"Hot Tow" meaning, tow while the track is hot? this is common for SCCA to have an incident and tow a car in a trap for example, but most always its with a pace car/full course caution. This particular incident happened on the cool down lap i was told by those on the scene. I think to not hot tow , if the car is in a spot that is safe, is better for the racers, but leaves a local caution up all race long, which most racers dont prefer due to one corner being taken slower.
I have forgotten what NASA uses in these situations

mark kibort

Thanks Mike.. I dont think a bad discussion to talk about an incident here while racing we ALL learn something. (my opinion) its not lke we are posting faces of death pictures here. it can be a wake up call to those that need to watch flags, or take it easy on the cool down lap, etc...through alll accidents there is benifit to the racing community. When i see pictures or video of crashes at our tracks, i start to think of what i would do in those situations, and what happened when they were handled by the guy in the picture and video.
Also, if there is risk for safety vehicles or us because of positioning of safety vehicles, that is also a huge benefit to discuss and provide our input.
Ill PM you.
yes, if you would like, (or anyone would like) they can remove this thread. i have no issues, ( but the above ) with that.
Mark

959fan

Ouch ouch ouch. Sounds like someone fell asleep at the wheel, and yet he will not own up to his responsibility? I don't see how he can win anything... he must've have signed an waiver or two to get on the track.

mark kibort

As far as i can tell, i agree with you. you just shouldnt be hitting a firetruck on a h'gh speed curve ... but maybe the firetruck thought he "owned the corner"
You also shouldn't complain on "how" they get you out of the vehicle. I think i defer to their best judgment on that... they do this every track day.
in this case, they had him out and on an helicopter in 20mins.
In this dangerous sport, you certainly dont sue a track, organization, or the workers unless their is gross negligence, which i doubt there was.
This kind of litigation is cause of the equivalent of what caused malpractice insurance for doctors to go through the roof. all it does is raise the rates to play!
It also shows how dangerous it can be to ignore or not pay attention to the flags. Results can be catastrophic. Its amazing to me how many racers still dont know what a full course caution looks like and the process of how to racing.

everyone just sues now.. really sad!

996FLT6

It's happened at a NASA NorCal hpde event at Sears hitting a firetruck under a yellow. Driver probably didn't see the yellow flag or ignored it but slammed into the back of a firetruck. Thank god no one was hurt other than the driver's car. Pretty strict nowadays with hpde when I was there. You pass on any yellow flag in hpde your banned from next session and if done twice banned the whole day and hpde NorCal you only get 4 hpde sessions. Mike

Tom W

There was no yellow. I was there when it happened (a ways back from the incident). It happened after the checkered flag and there was no white flag to indicate the other vehicles were on the track (NASA practice at the time if checker was out). He passed a slower guy at 8 and could not see the support truck until he hit it.

Give it a break guys. You are trying to decide what happened a couple years ago based on incorrect and incomplete information. Complaining that the driver did something terribly wrong when you don't know the facts not productive. He paid for his mistake.

Let's just end the thread.

flatsics

This is a fantastic thread...

mark kibort

your Right Tom, we were not there and again my only purpose of continuing the discussion was to talk about what went wrong. regardless of fault. thats a real lousy way to lose a race car for sure. But, i have to say, when a checker is out, the session is over (for those looking to learn from his mistake). the Firetruck was called to help another car and was on the move. they do this on checker laps sometimes in races too. going "flat out" on the checker of a pracitice or qual lap is dangerous... if you are, you should be hyper aware of safety vehicles as, after a checker, they can enter the traffic flow.

Mahler9th

All:

Injuries, lawyers and families were involved. Please show that you have empathy and good judgement.

This is not one for an internet forum.

- MM

mark kibort

Mike, im really sick of folks turning a blind eye to real issues that can lead to REAL education . many folks are on this forum that have been in races and have created dangerous situations. I speak out REGULARY at racer meetings to announce the elephant in the room......... people just unaware of racing protocol and flag recognition. if this thread can make one person more aware of the dangers of checkered flag driving habits, or what the flags actually mean, then it was worth it. you cant talk enough about this kind of stuff. yes, im sorry someone got hurt at the track. But, im more concerned with everyone being made aware of the risks and chances we all take and how those risks go up if we dont think about what we need to be looking for at the track, when certain flgs fly. best case, people that know, just cause a session or race to end early ... worst case someone gets killed. Hardly the place you say? i say it clearly is the BEST place to discuss and make aware.

it wasnt my intent here , but some good can come out of this thread now, for sure as it might save a life (or a car) .

mglobe

What is interesting about this thread is that there are multiple people who were there giving multiple descriptions of what happened. I comment on that not to imply any particular recollection is right or wrong, but to point out that the information we get on things like this is often incomplete or incorrect. So even if it is not considered in bad taste to speculate on fault etc, it's usually a mistake to do so because we don't have reliable information.

I see this same lack of consistency in information on racing incidents in real time at the track. Corner worker reports don't always jive. Video from multiple cars show multiple or different causes. Driver's memories of events are often flawed.

I'm not calling anyone out on what they've said in this thread. Just pointing out how little most if not all of us really know about this incident or any others we see reported on the intwerwebs.

jrgordonsenior

Mark I agree completely. If these type of discussions make even 1 racer more aware on course then the discussion is valid. There's no photos or names here....

Mike Globe I think Tom Weber has it correctly. Yellow or checkered it really doesn't matter. The point was there was a wrecker on course at the bottom on a short incline with what should have been reduced speeds. Terrible and tragic set of circumstances....

mark kibort

I tend to look at it differntly. sure, the corner workers , say "here is this guy going like a bat out of hell, ignoring flag and crashing into us". (part right)... the driver perspective, "i was trying to keep heat in my tires for poddock reviw and was passing a very slow car, and all of the sudden i crashed in to a firetruck what was he doing there!??". and then the sideliners get to hear what they hear as well. what we do know is that it was on a checker. no matter what the outcome, you have to be aware that when you see a checker or a double yellow, you need to be cautious... this means EXTRA careful, period. if you are not, bad things can happen. thats all.. i dont think anyone can argue that on this list.

As a note, my information came from one of the safety officials in the truck that was hit and he was the guy that pulled him out. Ive already distilled his bias. Again, not only do flags have meaning, know what to do and how to proceed when you see them. thats my point here.

Thanks John. and yes, it is a terrible occurrence that happens a little too often. I think this kind of discussion (sure, sans the pictures) is good every once in a while to reset our remembrance of the what the flags mean and our behavior out there. The real life incident just brings out that its not theory, it happens. This poor guy was probably effected for life and certainly wasn't cheap financially either.

cajerseyboy

I'm new to the track. Been to Sonoma 3 times with my GTS. I always obey the flags but had no idea that larger vehicles could go out onto the track except after a crash. I will be more cautious and on the lookout in the future.