Left Foot Brake only on LRP Downhill? Bad idea?
10-13-2016, 05:01 PM
#16
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,449
Received 3,241 Likes
on
1,576 Posts
I don't left foot brake for the reasons stated in Frank's posts. Too much going on when you have the clutch and all to be doing that. I'm also too old to relearn it even if I went to PDK some day. (Blah!)
When I hit the downhill I am on throttle and when I am reaching the bottom I just "turn on my brake lights for a tenth of a second" and then get about my business. Eyes up, feed in throttle, and back to full throttle slightly before the apex. Lots of compression when you hit bottom and then there is the dip at the apex which gives even more compression.
Below is video from the club race this year. Around the 23:00 mark begins some good examples of what I do on the downhill. At 24:40 is what I like to accomplish.
Funny thing is on my personal best of 57.9, which starts around the 25:00 mark, I boggle the downhill and don't get full on the throttle. Could have been the lap record right there!
Accordingly, in my view, no need to left foot. But in such august company as some other posters on this thread the above just represents my meager view!
When I hit the downhill I am on throttle and when I am reaching the bottom I just "turn on my brake lights for a tenth of a second" and then get about my business. Eyes up, feed in throttle, and back to full throttle slightly before the apex. Lots of compression when you hit bottom and then there is the dip at the apex which gives even more compression.
Below is video from the club race this year. Around the 23:00 mark begins some good examples of what I do on the downhill. At 24:40 is what I like to accomplish.
Funny thing is on my personal best of 57.9, which starts around the 25:00 mark, I boggle the downhill and don't get full on the throttle. Could have been the lap record right there!
Accordingly, in my view, no need to left foot. But in such august company as some other posters on this thread the above just represents my meager view!
10-13-2016, 05:15 PM
#17
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,649
Received 2,800 Likes
on
1,654 Posts
Looks good to me (the Downhill, anyway... 
)!
)!
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
10-13-2016, 05:18 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
It's gonna be a long winter for me 'cuz I'm already looking forward to getting Jonathan and Simon to drive my SP2 a few laps and then meet up with you and see what we can figure out to help me improve 
and I'm even more excited to get your input on other tracks especially Watkins Glenn!
Awesome video!
And, for the record I wouldn't use the word meager with any of your "views". Thanks for the input!
and I'm even more excited to get your input on other tracks especially Watkins Glenn!Below is video from the club race this year. Around the 23:00 mark begins some good examples of what I do on the downhill. At 24:40 is what I like to accomplish.
Funny thing is on my personal best of 57.9, which starts around the 25:00 mark, I boggle the downhill and don't get full on the throttle. Could have been the lap record right there!
Accordingly, in my view, no need to left foot. But in such august company as some other posters on this thread the above just represents my meager view!
Funny thing is on my personal best of 57.9, which starts around the 25:00 mark, I boggle the downhill and don't get full on the throttle. Could have been the lap record right there!
Accordingly, in my view, no need to left foot. But in such august company as some other posters on this thread the above just represents my meager view!
And, for the record I wouldn't use the word meager with any of your "views". Thanks for the input!
10-14-2016, 08:40 AM
#19
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It was my first time racing at LRP this year. I tried it all three ways in the downhill and decided that a LF brush was the fastest because I could get back to WOT faster and still keep the car planted all the way to track out. I wasn't loosing time there, even to Matt. My problems were the left hander and the uphill. Next year. That said, if you don't normally use your left foot, I wouldn't try it there until you are sure you can modulate as well as you can with your right foot. I almost always LFB on the street so It feels very natural to me.
10-14-2016, 01:18 PM
#20
Hey JP- I was in the same Skippy class in the other group. It was great to really get some rain time in (I'm not being sarcastic, the rain learning was the biggest learning for me).
Maybe you've already cemented some of this in your mind but:
In PDK car- no question, you should use left foot everywhere if you;re able. I don't think anyone would argue this... though I'm sure someone will want to present the counter-opinion.
In a manual-
-if you're not changing a gear, yeah left foot brake. few would argue this.
-if you're dropping a gear, here's where i think you may see some debate. You're dabbing some left foot to settle the car which usually comes a bit before you turn in. You've got to switch back to your right foot so you can clutch with your left to go down a gear and you want to get all of that out of the way before you're in the corner. So it really depends on how long the preceding straight is, how many gears you downshift, how aggressively you're turning in, etc.
Maybe consider holding all other things equal and trying it both ways a few times.
I have also noticed in my 911 that the left foot brake does just completely kill the power. At first i thought I was just being ham fisted (ham-footed) but now I realize it's the ECU cutting the power.
Maybe you've already cemented some of this in your mind but:
In PDK car- no question, you should use left foot everywhere if you;re able. I don't think anyone would argue this... though I'm sure someone will want to present the counter-opinion.
In a manual-
-if you're not changing a gear, yeah left foot brake. few would argue this.
-if you're dropping a gear, here's where i think you may see some debate. You're dabbing some left foot to settle the car which usually comes a bit before you turn in. You've got to switch back to your right foot so you can clutch with your left to go down a gear and you want to get all of that out of the way before you're in the corner. So it really depends on how long the preceding straight is, how many gears you downshift, how aggressively you're turning in, etc.
Maybe consider holding all other things equal and trying it both ways a few times.
I have also noticed in my 911 that the left foot brake does just completely kill the power. At first i thought I was just being ham fisted (ham-footed) but now I realize it's the ECU cutting the power.
10-14-2016, 01:50 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
It's gonna be a long winter for me 'cuz I'm already looking forward to getting Jonathan and Simon to drive my SP2 a few laps and then meet up with you and see what we can figure out to help me improve and I'm even more excited to get your input on other tracks especially Watkins Glenn!
and I'm even more excited to get your input on other tracks especially Watkins Glenn!
10-14-2016, 02:34 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
The bottomline, it's not the ability to have throttle and power as soon as you want, (most cars have near instant throttle response. LFB is realy more about effectively changing rear brake bias in those turns that require it. LFB neutralizes the rear brakes and only uses more of the front. many turns are assisted with some of the rear decel forces , even slightly, coming from the rear. a lift gives quite a bit of rear brake engine forces. each turn and the balance of the car will determine what will work best for you . yes, you are over thinking it. just drive the last turn and dont worry about LFB for now.
10-14-2016, 02:42 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I hope you are going to try using 3rd gear going up the hill and to the next two turns before downhill. leaving a solid 50hp on the table in those areas as i mentioned in a prior thread . (no need to be running 5-6k when you can be running 6-7k rpm) Huge gains possible there. i think they will trump ( ) any possible gains of LFB or RFB.
just do it for one lap.. i think you might be surprised to the results. those GT4 cars wont be out accelerating you !
) any possible gains of LFB or RFB. just do it for one lap.. i think you might be surprised to the results. those GT4 cars wont be out accelerating you !
I don't left foot brake for the reasons stated in Frank's posts. Too much going on when you have the clutch and all to be doing that. I'm also too old to relearn it even if I went to PDK some day. (Blah!)
When I hit the downhill I am on throttle and when I am reaching the bottom I just "turn on my brake lights for a tenth of a second" and then get about my business. Eyes up, feed in throttle, and back to full throttle slightly before the apex. Lots of compression when you hit bottom and then there is the dip at the apex which gives even more compression.
Below is video from the club race this year. Around the 23:00 mark begins some good examples of what I do on the downhill. At 24:40 is what I like to accomplish.
Funny thing is on my personal best of 57.9, which starts around the 25:00 mark, I boggle the downhill and don't get full on the throttle. Could have been the lap record right there!
Accordingly, in my view, no need to left foot. But in such august company as some other posters on this thread the above just represents my meager view!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN1dP2O27cY
When I hit the downhill I am on throttle and when I am reaching the bottom I just "turn on my brake lights for a tenth of a second" and then get about my business. Eyes up, feed in throttle, and back to full throttle slightly before the apex. Lots of compression when you hit bottom and then there is the dip at the apex which gives even more compression.
Below is video from the club race this year. Around the 23:00 mark begins some good examples of what I do on the downhill. At 24:40 is what I like to accomplish.
Funny thing is on my personal best of 57.9, which starts around the 25:00 mark, I boggle the downhill and don't get full on the throttle. Could have been the lap record right there!
Accordingly, in my view, no need to left foot. But in such august company as some other posters on this thread the above just represents my meager view!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN1dP2O27cY
10-14-2016, 05:14 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
First actual ride is scheduled for Nov. 4th with Simon Kirkby riding along. Will be my first experience on slicks. Can't wait!!
Got some minor bad news today though. Seems the car is too loud for LRP as is so will need to add a bigger muffler and lose a touch of power if I want to drive it in practice sessions with the LRDC.
Definitely a learning experience!!
10-14-2016, 05:28 PM
#25
Drifting
Around the hairpin at our little H2R track, a little LFB would be great to settle the front while still putting on the power and getting the car to rotate.
However, I had forgotten where my left foot was when I came around the front straight and went to upshift. I'm just glad nobody was on my tail at that moment....
Despite my repeated attempts over the years... on track or not...
Let's just say my left foot continues to be a digital appendage and needs a bit of work on finesse :-) and isn't quite LFB friendly....
Mike
10-14-2016, 06:26 PM
#26
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,449
Received 3,241 Likes
on
1,576 Posts
I hope you are going to try using 3rd gear going up the hill and to the next two turns before downhill. leaving a solid 50hp on the table in those areas as i mentioned in a prior thread . (no need to be running 5-6k when you can be running 6-7k rpm) Huge gains possible there. i think they will trump ( ) any possible gains of LFB or RFB.
just do it for one lap.. i think you might be surprised to the results. those GT4 cars wont be out accelerating you !
) any possible gains of LFB or RFB. just do it for one lap.. i think you might be surprised to the results. those GT4 cars wont be out accelerating you !
That's why PDK cars have such an advantage as they'll shift the gears in corners like this putting a manual transmission driver at a disadvantage.
Yeah, I've watched Van's videos a dozen times and seen for myself plus the car has some track rash to show for it - gives it character. I asked SST to get a logo and call the car The Ugly Duckling. Hopefully that plus the big X on my tail will make everyone give me some extra room on my first couple races
First actual ride is scheduled for Nov. 4th with Simon Kirkby riding along. Will be my first experience on slicks. Can't wait!!
Got some minor bad news today though. Seems the car is too loud for LRP as is so will need to add a bigger muffler and lose a touch of power if I want to drive it in practice sessions with the LRDC.
That big X on the back of your car is "Hi! This is my first race and I am easy picking!"
People told me that the X would warn people to give me room. That's not what happens so just be warned! It can also make them a little afraid of what you will do so it balances itself out.
What class are you planning on running in?
Definitely a learning experience!!
First actual ride is scheduled for Nov. 4th with Simon Kirkby riding along. Will be my first experience on slicks. Can't wait!!
Got some minor bad news today though. Seems the car is too loud for LRP as is so will need to add a bigger muffler and lose a touch of power if I want to drive it in practice sessions with the LRDC.
That big X on the back of your car is "Hi! This is my first race and I am easy picking!"
People told me that the X would warn people to give me room. That's not what happens so just be warned! It can also make them a little afraid of what you will do so it balances itself out.
What class are you planning on running in?
Definitely a learning experience!!
10-14-2016, 07:25 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I hope you are going to try using 3rd gear going up the hill and to the next two turns before downhill. leaving a solid 50hp on the table in those areas as i mentioned in a prior thread . (no need to be running 5-6k when you can be running 6-7k rpm) Huge gains possible there. i think they will trump ( ) any possible gains of LFB or RFB.
just do it for one lap.. i think you might be surprised to the results. those GT4 cars wont be out accelerating you !
) any possible gains of LFB or RFB. just do it for one lap.. i think you might be surprised to the results. those GT4 cars wont be out accelerating you !
Unfortunately, the SP2 I plan on racing opens a whole new "Can of Worms" in that it has less than half the HP of the Cayman R, and the Skippy MX-5 that prompted this thread was in 4th gear and almost redline after No Name straight all the way to the Down Hill so no real option there hence the discussion on "settling" the car.
A Skippy instructor said a very interesting thing to me at the end of the class. He said the first thing you learn is to control the contact patches on the tire. The second thing you learn is to control the springs. LFB on the Down Hill is a question of learning to control the springs.
That big X on the back of your car is "Hi! This is my first race and I am easy picking!"
People told me that the X would warn people to give me room. That's not what happens so just be warned! It can also make them a little afraid of what you will do so it balances itself out.
What class are you planning on running in?
People told me that the X would warn people to give me room. That's not what happens so just be warned! It can also make them a little afraid of what you will do so it balances itself out.
What class are you planning on running in?
I bought a 944/SP2 car that is being rebuilt by Speed Sport Tuning of Danbury, and I plan at least one season with that just to be sure I'm good and truly addicted, but ultimately I'd like to join the new SPC group in a couple 2-3 years.
Saw your car today being loaded on the trailer at SST! Good luck in Daytona!!
10-14-2016, 08:21 PM
#28
Intermediate
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't driven either of these cars (other than a Skippy MX5) at Lime Rock, so won't comment on that....other than a Skippy MX5 car may NOT be the platform you want to optimize some of your hand/footwork in, though the physics are the same
A few thoughts
1) I think Mario Andretti once said "people who think brakes are only for slowing down are missing something" (or similar)
2) LFB is a practiced skill; in my experience it requires the brake pedal itself shifted over, and you have to train your foot and brain to modulate properly. To many, it's sort of like shooting left-handed....same process, just different!
3) on my data, the biggest advantage was I gained a few tenths on transitions from throttle to brake, and occasionally for going back to throttle. In reality, I should be shifting my right foot faster. On data, I have have gotten good enough that my brake pressures, the shape of the curve and the amount of overlap is pretty low
4) anecdote, in endurance racing, LFB drivers tend to use brake pads up noticeably quicker....due to overlap
5) the point about maximizing the tires, then maximize the springs, is sort of on the right path. If you're "brushing" the brakes, ask yourself if you're trying to reduce speed, shift weight/increase pitch or both. If you are lifting or braking after that, you're also crossroading the front and encouraging the rear to get light.
6) At LRP, it's key to use the compression to get the car turning, and add power to keep the rear end behind you (I'm oversimplifying). Doesn't matter if RFB, LFB, or a big/small lift, the key thing is to manage the platform as it transitions. The uphill is similar, just that gravity is working on a slightly different vector. I have zero prototype experience at LRP, some Skippy formula cars (which again, I have my doubts about) but in GT cars, it's about managing the weight transfer.
A few thoughts
1) I think Mario Andretti once said "people who think brakes are only for slowing down are missing something" (or similar)
2) LFB is a practiced skill; in my experience it requires the brake pedal itself shifted over, and you have to train your foot and brain to modulate properly. To many, it's sort of like shooting left-handed....same process, just different!
3) on my data, the biggest advantage was I gained a few tenths on transitions from throttle to brake, and occasionally for going back to throttle. In reality, I should be shifting my right foot faster. On data, I have have gotten good enough that my brake pressures, the shape of the curve and the amount of overlap is pretty low
4) anecdote, in endurance racing, LFB drivers tend to use brake pads up noticeably quicker....due to overlap
5) the point about maximizing the tires, then maximize the springs, is sort of on the right path. If you're "brushing" the brakes, ask yourself if you're trying to reduce speed, shift weight/increase pitch or both. If you are lifting or braking after that, you're also crossroading the front and encouraging the rear to get light.
6) At LRP, it's key to use the compression to get the car turning, and add power to keep the rear end behind you (I'm oversimplifying). Doesn't matter if RFB, LFB, or a big/small lift, the key thing is to manage the platform as it transitions. The uphill is similar, just that gravity is working on a slightly different vector. I have zero prototype experience at LRP, some Skippy formula cars (which again, I have my doubts about) but in GT cars, it's about managing the weight transfer.
10-14-2016, 09:21 PM
#29
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,649
Received 2,800 Likes
on
1,654 Posts
This reminds me of one of the times I was practicing LFB on track.
Around the hairpin at our little H2R track, a little LFB would be great to settle the front while still putting on the power and getting the car to rotate.
However, I had forgotten where my left foot was when I came around the front straight and went to upshift. I'm just glad nobody was on my tail at that moment....
Despite my repeated attempts over the years... on track or not...
Let's just say my left foot continues to be a digital appendage and needs a bit of work on finesse :-) and isn't quite LFB friendly....
Mike
Around the hairpin at our little H2R track, a little LFB would be great to settle the front while still putting on the power and getting the car to rotate.
However, I had forgotten where my left foot was when I came around the front straight and went to upshift. I'm just glad nobody was on my tail at that moment....
Despite my repeated attempts over the years... on track or not...
Let's just say my left foot continues to be a digital appendage and needs a bit of work on finesse :-) and isn't quite LFB friendly....
Mike
10-14-2016, 09:23 PM
#30
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,649
Received 2,800 Likes
on
1,654 Posts
I haven't driven either of these cars (other than a Skippy MX5) at Lime Rock, so won't comment on that....other than a Skippy MX5 car may NOT be the platform you want to optimize some of your hand/footwork in, though the physics are the same
A few thoughts
1) I think Mario Andretti once said "people who think brakes are only for slowing down are missing something" (or similar)
2) LFB is a practiced skill; in my experience it requires the brake pedal itself shifted over, and you have to train your foot and brain to modulate properly. To many, it's sort of like shooting left-handed....same process, just different!
3) on my data, the biggest advantage was I gained a few tenths on transitions from throttle to brake, and occasionally for going back to throttle. In reality, I should be shifting my right foot faster. On data, I have have gotten good enough that my brake pressures, the shape of the curve and the amount of overlap is pretty low
4) anecdote, in endurance racing, LFB drivers tend to use brake pads up noticeably quicker....due to overlap
5) the point about maximizing the tires, then maximize the springs, is sort of on the right path. If you're "brushing" the brakes, ask yourself if you're trying to reduce speed, shift weight/increase pitch or both. If you are lifting or braking after that, you're also crossroading the front and encouraging the rear to get light.
6) At LRP, it's key to use the compression to get the car turning, and add power to keep the rear end behind you (I'm oversimplifying). Doesn't matter if RFB, LFB, or a big/small lift, the key thing is to manage the platform as it transitions. The uphill is similar, just that gravity is working on a slightly different vector. I have zero prototype experience at LRP, some Skippy formula cars (which again, I have my doubts about) but in GT cars, it's about managing the weight transfer.
A few thoughts
1) I think Mario Andretti once said "people who think brakes are only for slowing down are missing something" (or similar)
2) LFB is a practiced skill; in my experience it requires the brake pedal itself shifted over, and you have to train your foot and brain to modulate properly. To many, it's sort of like shooting left-handed....same process, just different!
3) on my data, the biggest advantage was I gained a few tenths on transitions from throttle to brake, and occasionally for going back to throttle. In reality, I should be shifting my right foot faster. On data, I have have gotten good enough that my brake pressures, the shape of the curve and the amount of overlap is pretty low
4) anecdote, in endurance racing, LFB drivers tend to use brake pads up noticeably quicker....due to overlap
5) the point about maximizing the tires, then maximize the springs, is sort of on the right path. If you're "brushing" the brakes, ask yourself if you're trying to reduce speed, shift weight/increase pitch or both. If you are lifting or braking after that, you're also crossroading the front and encouraging the rear to get light.
6) At LRP, it's key to use the compression to get the car turning, and add power to keep the rear end behind you (I'm oversimplifying). Doesn't matter if RFB, LFB, or a big/small lift, the key thing is to manage the platform as it transitions. The uphill is similar, just that gravity is working on a slightly different vector. I have zero prototype experience at LRP, some Skippy formula cars (which again, I have my doubts about) but in GT cars, it's about managing the weight transfer.
I DO have substantial prototype, sports racing and some formula car experience at Lime Rock, and these cars are a little less adversely affected by the "release of stored spring energy," in Skippy speak...