let's talk downforce
10-07-2016, 02:05 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
There are a couple answers to that question. (1) my brain has decided that my bank account isn't nearly bruised enough and this seems like a perfectly reasonable way to beat it up good and proper. (2) I want to get around tracks more quickly. More specifically, I'm looking for more down force to help settle the car better over bumpy straights (T1->T2 at Palmer), more aero to help take fast corners with more speed/throttle (T2 @ Palmer, T2&T10 @WGI, Downhill @LRP etc.) and more grip on initial braking on long straights. I'm already investing in coaching when I can (Pete A. at the Glen on Monday) and am still learning the craft of driving. More HP isn't going to help me much at this point because I mostly need to use more of what I already have in my Cayman S. I like my brakes (GiroDisks/Pagids) and tires (R7s). I'm doing 2:11 laps at the glen and 1:00 at LRP and would like to see if I can learn to put some aero to work for me. Does that make sense? Where in your guys development did you jump to aero packages and why?
10-07-2016, 02:15 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Are you extracting everything you can out of the current setup?
How much faster can a pro drive your car, and are you interested in closing that gap re. further skill development before jumping to aero bits?
Have you considered suspension improvements to meet your goals (what has been done so far) prior to aero?
How much faster can a pro drive your car, and are you interested in closing that gap re. further skill development before jumping to aero bits?
Have you considered suspension improvements to meet your goals (what has been done so far) prior to aero?
I don't know what a pro can really get out of it. They don't seem interested in driving flat out in other people's cars. Peter Argetsinger was turninging easy 2:15s in it last time. Let's see what he does this next week.
In response to other helpful questions - I totally get that it isn't just a wing. I'd be looking at a good splitter (pretty well proven) and probably canards (crap-shoot). Am I right that no-one is selling the Bodymotion splitter new any longer?
Also, on mentions of the "getty wing". They have two wings now, as of just recently. The RS and the GS. The GS mimicks the 991 GT3 wing. I'll of course call them before ordering anything, but does anyone know the differences?
10-07-2016, 02:28 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The car has been mostly stripped, and is at ~2900# wet with a full cage. Would you really go for extreme lightening measures before adding a wing?
I put the question of work on the car to Pete A. in March when he drove it and he said (1) some Aero, and (2) fully disable the PSM. Yes this was secondary to ideas for the driver!
I'm not not trying to be defensive on this. Very much open to trying other things first! Just sharing what I've done to date. What do you think?
10-07-2016, 02:29 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
In response to other helpful questions - I totally get that it isn't just a wing. I'd be looking at a good splitter (pretty well proven) and probably canards (crap-shoot). Am I right that no-one is selling the Bodymotion splitter new any longer?
Also, on mentions of the "getty wing". They have two wings now, as of just recently. The RS and the GS. The GS mimicks the 991 GT3 wing. I'll of course call them before ordering anything, but does anyone know the differences?
Im sure both would work, but i would think the GS wing is going to cost more.
as far as canards go (or diveplanes).. they do work and are almost pure drag for any downforce they make.. i would only be bolting those on after you have tuned the car the best you can .
10-07-2016, 02:38 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
this is no different than bolting on a set of hoosiers or anything else to make the car go fast. go ahead, bolt it on . figure out if it helps or not. tune it out if it hurts, . its not going to effect that much, and at worst, the car will look more like a race car!
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Murphey997 (09-15-2019)
10-07-2016, 04:51 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I have KW coilovers (V3) which came with the car. I think they are pretty lightweight (~400lbs) but seem like they are about right for my level of driving. But this is one area I've still got a lot to learn on. I'm having trouble really pointing to one specific thing with suspension and saying "I could fix that with more/less: spring/damping/sway". I have played with damping and found a spot where if I take much out or add much in I get slower. I haven't corner balanced. Next on my list there is to experiment with the sway bar settings (RSS).
The car has been mostly stripped, and is at ~2900# wet with a full cage. Would you really go for extreme lightening measures before adding a wing?
I put the question of work on the car to Pete A. in March when he drove it and he said (1) some Aero, and (2) fully disable the PSM. Yes this was secondary to ideas for the driver!
I'm not not trying to be defensive on this. Very much open to trying other things first! Just sharing what I've done to date. What do you think?
The car has been mostly stripped, and is at ~2900# wet with a full cage. Would you really go for extreme lightening measures before adding a wing?
I put the question of work on the car to Pete A. in March when he drove it and he said (1) some Aero, and (2) fully disable the PSM. Yes this was secondary to ideas for the driver!
I'm not not trying to be defensive on this. Very much open to trying other things first! Just sharing what I've done to date. What do you think?
1) Understand that I, nor Dave, are saying don't add aero, but rather to consider other things in the existing platform (other than the driver) that can help you go faster. Aero is expensive, can create imbalance, and on tracks with long straights in low horsepower cars can actually slow you down!
2) Given the weight, mods, and tires, there is another 1-2 seconds at the Glen available without aero.
3) If you aren't adjusting the sway bars to adjust balance/slip then I'd wager there's definitely more time in your car. Without knowing your sway bar dimensions, the general Cayman setup is lots of front bar and a little bit of rear. But you need adjustable drop links to be able to optimize sway settings i.e. to run asymmetrical holes and/or preload.
4) For a track only car at those lap times with an R7 you definitely need more spring. And if you are considering aero you will... need more spring.
5) If you are considering moving from DE to PCA racing you should think now about what class (SPC vs. H vs. I) you might run and this will impact where and how you spend money i.e. aero vs. not.
6) If you don't already have an LSD in the car then that should come before any other mods.
Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. I am very familiar with both your car and the Glen.
10-07-2016, 05:14 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Those are fair statements too, especially #6
A few comments:
1) Understand that I, nor Dave, are saying don't add aero, but rather to consider other things in the existing platform (other than the driver) that can help you go faster. Aero is expensive, can create imbalance, and on tracks with long straights in low horsepower cars can actually slow you down!
2) Given the weight, mods, and tires, there is another 1-2 seconds at the Glen available without aero.
3) If you aren't adjusting the sway bars to adjust balance/slip then I'd wager there's definitely more time in your car. Without knowing your sway bar dimensions, the general Cayman setup is lots of front bar and a little bit of rear. But you need adjustable drop links to be able to optimize sway settings i.e. to run asymmetrical holes and/or preload.
4) For a track only car at those lap times with an R7 you definitely need more spring. And if you are considering aero you will... need more spring.
5) If you are considering moving from DE to PCA racing you should think now about what class (SPC vs. H vs. I) you might run and this will impact where and how you spend money i.e. aero vs. not.
6) If you don't already have an LSD in the car then that should come before any other mods.
Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. I am very familiar with both your car and the Glen.
1) Understand that I, nor Dave, are saying don't add aero, but rather to consider other things in the existing platform (other than the driver) that can help you go faster. Aero is expensive, can create imbalance, and on tracks with long straights in low horsepower cars can actually slow you down!
2) Given the weight, mods, and tires, there is another 1-2 seconds at the Glen available without aero.
3) If you aren't adjusting the sway bars to adjust balance/slip then I'd wager there's definitely more time in your car. Without knowing your sway bar dimensions, the general Cayman setup is lots of front bar and a little bit of rear. But you need adjustable drop links to be able to optimize sway settings i.e. to run asymmetrical holes and/or preload.
4) For a track only car at those lap times with an R7 you definitely need more spring. And if you are considering aero you will... need more spring.
5) If you are considering moving from DE to PCA racing you should think now about what class (SPC vs. H vs. I) you might run and this will impact where and how you spend money i.e. aero vs. not.
6) If you don't already have an LSD in the car then that should come before any other mods.
Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. I am very familiar with both your car and the Glen.
10-07-2016, 05:28 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
A few comments: 1) Understand that I, nor Dave, are saying don't add aero, but rather to consider other things in the existing platform (other than the driver) that can help you go faster. Aero is expensive, can create imbalance, and on tracks with long straights in low horsepower cars can actually slow you down! 2) Given the weight, mods, and tires, there is another 1-2 seconds at the Glen available without aero. 3) If you aren't adjusting the sway bars to adjust balance/slip then I'd wager there's definitely more time in your car. Without knowing your sway bar dimensions, the general Cayman setup is lots of front bar and a little bit of rear. But you need adjustable drop links to be able to optimize sway settings i.e. to run asymmetrical holes and/or preload. 4) For a track only car at those lap times with an R7 you definitely need more spring. And if you are considering aero you will... need more spring. 5) If you are considering moving from DE to PCA racing you should think now about what class (SPC vs. H vs. I) you might run and this will impact where and how you spend money i.e. aero vs. not. 6) If you don't already have an LSD in the car then that should come before any other mods. Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. I am very familiar with both your car and the Glen.
Corner balance it. Makes a huge difference
10-07-2016, 06:27 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Matt, and everyone. Very helpful. I'll digest this at the Glen next week 
Maybe even play around with the sway bars a bit.
Oh, and still curious if there are opinions on the two wings Getty Designs now has (they are the same price and use the same base and uprights).
And also whether there are alternatives to the Getty front splitter (outside of the used market).
-Erik
Maybe even play around with the sway bars a bit.Oh, and still curious if there are opinions on the two wings Getty Designs now has (they are the same price and use the same base and uprights).
And also whether there are alternatives to the Getty front splitter (outside of the used market).
-Erik
10-07-2016, 06:56 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
10-07-2016, 06:57 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Considering your car's level of preparation your lap times are respectable. Definitely some opportunity for improvement at the Glen. But from this point on the incremental reductions in lap times will be small bites. Don't expect to put a wing and a splitter on and drop 5 seconds.
I'd suggest sticking with what you've got until you know better what you need. Don't play with your sway bars unless there's a problem you want to fix. Stiffer springs will probably be more valuable than aero.
I installed a full "race" suspension on my '12 Cayman R and drove it like that for a full season. The next winter I gutted and caged the car and installed a Bodymotion splitter and a Getty wing. Other than the weight reduction the only performance change was the aero and it was a great way for me to see its effect on this car. It's meaningful but it's not huge.
As a point of reference, I just returned from two days at Glen. A friend of mine was there with his track prepared base Cayman in which he has done a 2:07 there. I saw his data to confirm that. The car does not have any aero other than what came with it when new. Nothing special about the build on his car. Just really good driving. And he's using the same R7's as you.
I'd suggest sticking with what you've got until you know better what you need. Don't play with your sway bars unless there's a problem you want to fix. Stiffer springs will probably be more valuable than aero.
I installed a full "race" suspension on my '12 Cayman R and drove it like that for a full season. The next winter I gutted and caged the car and installed a Bodymotion splitter and a Getty wing. Other than the weight reduction the only performance change was the aero and it was a great way for me to see its effect on this car. It's meaningful but it's not huge.
As a point of reference, I just returned from two days at Glen. A friend of mine was there with his track prepared base Cayman in which he has done a 2:07 there. I saw his data to confirm that. The car does not have any aero other than what came with it when new. Nothing special about the build on his car. Just really good driving. And he's using the same R7's as you.
10-07-2016, 09:40 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Considering your car's level of preparation your lap times are respectable. Definitely some opportunity for improvement at the Glen. But from this point on the incremental reductions in lap times will be small bites. Don't expect to put a wing and a splitter on and drop 5 seconds.
I'd suggest sticking with what you've got until you know better what you need. Don't play with your sway bars unless there's a problem you want to fix. Stiffer springs will probably be more valuable than aero.
I installed a full "race" suspension on my '12 Cayman R and drove it like that for a full season. The next winter I gutted and caged the car and installed a Bodymotion splitter and a Getty wing. Other than the weight reduction the only performance change was the aero and it was a great way for me to see its effect on this car. It's meaningful but it's not huge.
As a point of reference, I just returned from two days at Glen. A friend of mine was there with his track prepared base Cayman in which he has done a 2:07 there. I saw his data to confirm that. The car does not have any aero other than what came with it when new. Nothing special about the build on his car. Just really good driving. And he's using the same R7's as you.
I'd suggest sticking with what you've got until you know better what you need. Don't play with your sway bars unless there's a problem you want to fix. Stiffer springs will probably be more valuable than aero.
I installed a full "race" suspension on my '12 Cayman R and drove it like that for a full season. The next winter I gutted and caged the car and installed a Bodymotion splitter and a Getty wing. Other than the weight reduction the only performance change was the aero and it was a great way for me to see its effect on this car. It's meaningful but it's not huge.
As a point of reference, I just returned from two days at Glen. A friend of mine was there with his track prepared base Cayman in which he has done a 2:07 there. I saw his data to confirm that. The car does not have any aero other than what came with it when new. Nothing special about the build on his car. Just really good driving. And he's using the same R7's as you.
cheers!