Ever had a student...
03-22-2017, 02:04 PM
#61
I think the very best thing I learned in the DE classroom was the difference between an early and a late apex. Sure, we need to know the flags and how and when to give point-bys and all that jazz, but I don't think any of that had as big an influence on my driving as the diagrams and explanations about how to approach the corner apex.
I've played racing video games for most of my life so I understood the concept of driving the perfect line and "hitting your apex" on the turns. What video games don't teach you is the consequences of getting it wrong and that HOW you get it wrong can make a world of difference to the outcome.
In a video game, you aim for that perfect apex and if you miss it and bounce off the wall you don't really think anything of it. You just try to do it better next time. It never occurred to me that the reason you hit that wall was because you turned too soon rather than too late. You just got it wrong. So be it.
In the real world though, in your very real car, this distinction is the difference between just being a bit slower around the corner and ending up off the track or wrecked. This was a revelation for me!
That lesson absolutely changed the way I approached corners on the track. I knew that an early apex could mean a wreck and made a point that if I was going to miss, I was definitely going to miss with a late apex and more than enough room to track out. If I do that, I can back it up a little on the next lap, and again and again so long as I'm comfortable.
If I get ambitious and shoot for that perfect apex on the first try and turn early... very bad things can happen.
I know you guys probably already know this instinctively and that it's not really on topic here. I just want to stress how important it was for me to learn in the classroom before getting out on the track. Since most of you in this thread are instructors, I'm sure it's good to get feedback and that sometimes things you take for granted are far more important to teach than you thought they were.
This is especially true for people like me who go in feeling like a hotshot because they think they know about racing lines and stuff.
03-22-2017, 02:15 PM
#62
Since you're the perfect guy for it, I'm gonna wax poetic about class time. If this is already part of your safety lesson, then great. If not, then I hope I can be a little influential in stressing how much this "performance" concept is important to safety.
I think the very best thing I learned in the DE classroom was the difference between an early and a late apex. Sure, we need to know the flags and how and when to give point-bys and all that jazz, but I don't think any of that had as big an influence on my driving as the diagrams and explanations about how to approach the corner apex.
I've played racing video games for most of my life so I understood the concept of driving the perfect line and "hitting your apex" on the turns. What video games don't teach you is the consequences of getting it wrong and that HOW you get it wrong can make a world of difference to the outcome.
In a video game, you aim for that perfect apex and if you miss it and bounce off the wall you don't really think anything of it. You just try to do it better next time. It never occurred to me that the reason you hit that wall was because you turned too soon rather than too late. You just got it wrong. So be it.
In the real world though, in your very real car, this distinction is the difference between just being a bit slower around the corner and ending up off the track or wrecked. This was a revelation for me!
That lesson absolutely changed the way I approached corners on the track. I knew that an early apex could mean a wreck and made a point that if I was going to miss, I was definitely going to miss with a late apex and more than enough room to track out. If I do that, I can back it up a little on the next lap, and again and again so long as I'm comfortable.
If I get ambitious and shoot for that perfect apex on the first try and turn early... very bad things can happen.
I know you guys probably already know this instinctively and that it's not really on topic here. I just want to stress how important it was for me to learn in the classroom before getting out on the track. Since most of you in this thread are instructors, I'm sure it's good to get feedback and that sometimes things you take for granted are far more important to teach than you thought they were.
This is especially true for people like me who go in feeling like a hotshot because they think they know about racing lines and stuff.
I think the very best thing I learned in the DE classroom was the difference between an early and a late apex. Sure, we need to know the flags and how and when to give point-bys and all that jazz, but I don't think any of that had as big an influence on my driving as the diagrams and explanations about how to approach the corner apex.
I've played racing video games for most of my life so I understood the concept of driving the perfect line and "hitting your apex" on the turns. What video games don't teach you is the consequences of getting it wrong and that HOW you get it wrong can make a world of difference to the outcome.
In a video game, you aim for that perfect apex and if you miss it and bounce off the wall you don't really think anything of it. You just try to do it better next time. It never occurred to me that the reason you hit that wall was because you turned too soon rather than too late. You just got it wrong. So be it.
In the real world though, in your very real car, this distinction is the difference between just being a bit slower around the corner and ending up off the track or wrecked. This was a revelation for me!
That lesson absolutely changed the way I approached corners on the track. I knew that an early apex could mean a wreck and made a point that if I was going to miss, I was definitely going to miss with a late apex and more than enough room to track out. If I do that, I can back it up a little on the next lap, and again and again so long as I'm comfortable.
If I get ambitious and shoot for that perfect apex on the first try and turn early... very bad things can happen.
I know you guys probably already know this instinctively and that it's not really on topic here. I just want to stress how important it was for me to learn in the classroom before getting out on the track. Since most of you in this thread are instructors, I'm sure it's good to get feedback and that sometimes things you take for granted are far more important to teach than you thought they were.
This is especially true for people like me who go in feeling like a hotshot because they think they know about racing lines and stuff.
Turning in early is the #1 mistake I see from students. Most of them start creeping towards the center of the track halfway down the straight leading up to a turn in preparation lol. It ties back to my "EYES UP" discussion.
It's very easy to early apex if your focus is on the curbing of the turn immediately before you.
Keep your eyes up, and your focus DOWN the track, to the NEXT turn, where you want to BE and not where you ARE... and suddenly the apexes start falling into place.
Ever had a case when you were a child where your dad tells you, "See that spot/crack/thing on the ground? DO NOT STEP ON IT!" and as you walk towards it, eyes focused on it so you don't step on it... and you inevitably find yourself struggling not to step on it?
You go where you look.
03-22-2017, 02:29 PM
#63
Three Wheelin'
if you bounce of the wall you are not allowed to play anymore till you pay $20k to a charity of your choosing.
(that's pretty light as it could be way more $$ or even include mandatory bedrest, while being punched at random spot every two hours to remember the pain, for a week to consider your mistake)
now how is that video game working out for you?
03-22-2017, 02:50 PM
#64
Well yeah. That's why I talked about the lack of consequences in a video game. There's little incentive to try to get it wrong in a good way vs. a bad way. Wrong is wrong. You're just focused on getting it right.
The classroom lesson about apexes made it clear WHAT was wrong about the turn and WHY you hit that wall so that you knew what to do in order to "correctly" get it wrong in a safe manner.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at with your response.
The classroom lesson about apexes made it clear WHAT was wrong about the turn and WHY you hit that wall so that you knew what to do in order to "correctly" get it wrong in a safe manner.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at with your response.
03-22-2017, 06:41 PM
#65
Race Car
re: PLNewaman's student. IMHO, way too much patience was given.
I know when I started instructing, I was much more forgiving and patient. Sometimes it takes a strong instructor to reign in a idiot. Your CI will back you up. There's no shame in bailing on someone that doesn't want help...
part of my intro is saying 'My job is to help you drive your car home in 1 piece today. Some here may not be so lucky.'
-not sure it would have helped with that guy, but after session 1, I would have said, I'm not getting in your car again, if you drive like that. And in session 2, I would have said pit now, I'm done. if still no pit, I would turn off the car on a straight. (assuming I can reach the key/button). or keep the car in 2nd... anything so I can get out.
its just not worth it.
I know when I started instructing, I was much more forgiving and patient. Sometimes it takes a strong instructor to reign in a idiot. Your CI will back you up. There's no shame in bailing on someone that doesn't want help...
part of my intro is saying 'My job is to help you drive your car home in 1 piece today. Some here may not be so lucky.'
-not sure it would have helped with that guy, but after session 1, I would have said, I'm not getting in your car again, if you drive like that. And in session 2, I would have said pit now, I'm done. if still no pit, I would turn off the car on a straight. (assuming I can reach the key/button). or keep the car in 2nd... anything so I can get out.
its just not worth it.
03-22-2017, 07:44 PM
#66
I think my first instructor said oh F*ck and you have to be kidding me a couple of times when I showed up for my first trackday in my Macan... I explained I just wanted to learn what my car was capable of in a controlled environment and knew we weren't going out there to be "fast" but in control, aware of my surroundings and able to feel what the car was trying to tell me to understand it better. It was my first Porsche ever and the DE world was completely foreign to me. Only time I had ever been on a track was on two wheels. Then we went out and did this for 20 minutes and I think he wanted one by the time we got done. Some of the comments were along the lines of Holy sh*t that shouldn't have been possible in a "crossover" LOL... He then proceeded to tell everyone how good the Macan really was after doubting her earlier in the day
To this day, everything he said stuck with me and I still reflect back on those basics every time I get in my car. Being able to take in his feedback and guidance based on what I was looking to accomplish for one weekend is what set me off on the path I am now which is prepping a car for Club racing 2 years later!!!
Big Cheers to everyone who sits in that right seat and makes someone else's dreams come true like it did for me...
First few laps are boring it gets ok around the 4 min 30 mark... The Corvette was not happy to let us past LOL
To this day, everything he said stuck with me and I still reflect back on those basics every time I get in my car. Being able to take in his feedback and guidance based on what I was looking to accomplish for one weekend is what set me off on the path I am now which is prepping a car for Club racing 2 years later!!!
Big Cheers to everyone who sits in that right seat and makes someone else's dreams come true like it did for me...
First few laps are boring it gets ok around the 4 min 30 mark... The Corvette was not happy to let us past LOL
03-22-2017, 09:07 PM
#68
I still have that visual of someone sitting next to me with smooth hands every time I am in the car!
03-22-2017, 09:38 PM
#69
That's awesome and I'm glad you got to experience the Macan on track! Thing looks like a blast! Good, controlled driving there too - nice job!
Our region took a pretty harsh stance: no SUV's, Macans or otherwise.
Our region took a pretty harsh stance: no SUV's, Macans or otherwise.
03-22-2017, 10:08 PM
#70
Thats interesting since PCA under their minimum standards allows it in the lower run groups. Why did your region disallow them? What about convertibles?
I would think that a Macan would be safer than an Omni.
I would think that a Macan would be safer than an Omni.
03-22-2017, 10:35 PM
#71
Thanks Omni, they aren't alone, a lot of regions will not allow them and it is because they classify it no different than a Cayenne which is crazy.
Sometimes it is down to the individual track but more often than not it is the region. Then when they are allowed you have to deal with all the comments about how it shouldn't be there, not a real Porsche etc etc until they see what it is actually capable of and people are usually more inquisitive and far more positive than derogatory by the end of the day...
Most impressive aspect of the Macan even more than it's handling was by far it's brakes... Bone stock yet no fade, no cooked fluid, nothing but predictable all day long no matter how hard they were pushed to slow 4000+ pounds from 130 mph lap after lap. It is when I realized what Porsche engineering really meant. Now it tows the Boxster!
03-22-2017, 10:52 PM
#73
I think my first instructor said oh F*ck and you have to be kidding me a couple of times when I showed up for my first trackday in my Macan... I explained I just wanted to learn what my car was capable of in a controlled environment and knew we weren't going out there to be "fast" but in control, aware of my surroundings and able to feel what the car was trying to tell me to understand it better. It was my first Porsche ever and the DE world was completely foreign to me. Only time I had ever been on a track was on two wheels. Then we went out and did this for 20 minutes and I think he wanted one by the time we got done. Some of the comments were along the lines of Holy sh*t that shouldn't have been possible in a "crossover" LOL... He then proceeded to tell everyone how good the Macan really was after doubting her earlier in the day
To this day, everything he said stuck with me and I still reflect back on those basics every time I get in my car. Being able to take in his feedback and guidance based on what I was looking to accomplish for one weekend is what set me off on the path I am now which is prepping a car for Club racing 2 years later!!!
Big Cheers to everyone who sits in that right seat and makes someone else's dreams come true like it did for me...
First few laps are boring it gets ok around the 4 min 30 mark... The Corvette was not happy to let us past LOL
To this day, everything he said stuck with me and I still reflect back on those basics every time I get in my car. Being able to take in his feedback and guidance based on what I was looking to accomplish for one weekend is what set me off on the path I am now which is prepping a car for Club racing 2 years later!!!
Big Cheers to everyone who sits in that right seat and makes someone else's dreams come true like it did for me...
First few laps are boring it gets ok around the 4 min 30 mark... The Corvette was not happy to let us past LOL
03-22-2017, 11:13 PM
#74
@johneecatt I think there were some seriously bruised ego's out there but my instructor and I had an absolute blast!! We were both pretty blown away by it and still joke about it... For the NJMP guys, it ran a 1:39 on Thunderbolt.
03-23-2017, 08:39 AM
#75
Sure, but once you're fast enough to need to know that, you should already be experienced enough to know the consequences of the different lines. For a beginner, knowing that aiming for a late apex is much safer is extremely valuable. Once you see the result, you can back it up as much as you want in a safe manner.
As for the Macan and Cayenne... when I went for the Porsche tour event to try out the new 718 Boxster S, we did a lead-follow on that same track I posted the video of earlier. The lead driver was a pro driving a Macan and I'll be quite honest in saying I thought I was hustling the Boxster S around the track somewhat competently but had the distinct impression he could have driven away from me quite easily any time he wanted to. For one of the sessions a few of us hopped in with him and I was duly impressed! He drove that thing with one hand while talking on a walkie and still managed to lap the track fast enough to put distance between himself and the following cars.
At my first full-day session on the big track at Mosport, I was at an event being run by one of our dealers so it wasn't PCA and the run groups were just based on whatever people decided they should be in. I'd never been on that track before so I signed up for the beginner group but when we found out half the day would be spent in the classroom, changed my group to Intermediate. I'd already done all the beginner classroom stuff with PCA and didn't want to lose half a day of track time.
I got an instructor to ride with me a few times to show me the track. While listening to and learning from the instructor, I had a Cayenne GTS drive up and fill up my mirrors and had to let him by. I gained a whole new respect for the Cayenne that day!
After, without the instructor in the car, I caught sight of that same Cayenne up ahead on the track and made it my sole mission in life to get around it just so I wouldn't have to tell people I was slower than a Cayenne.
I did it, but it wasn't trivial.
I've got video but I didn't have the audio turned on so it's rather long and boring.
As for the Macan and Cayenne... when I went for the Porsche tour event to try out the new 718 Boxster S, we did a lead-follow on that same track I posted the video of earlier. The lead driver was a pro driving a Macan and I'll be quite honest in saying I thought I was hustling the Boxster S around the track somewhat competently but had the distinct impression he could have driven away from me quite easily any time he wanted to. For one of the sessions a few of us hopped in with him and I was duly impressed! He drove that thing with one hand while talking on a walkie and still managed to lap the track fast enough to put distance between himself and the following cars.
At my first full-day session on the big track at Mosport, I was at an event being run by one of our dealers so it wasn't PCA and the run groups were just based on whatever people decided they should be in. I'd never been on that track before so I signed up for the beginner group but when we found out half the day would be spent in the classroom, changed my group to Intermediate. I'd already done all the beginner classroom stuff with PCA and didn't want to lose half a day of track time.
I got an instructor to ride with me a few times to show me the track. While listening to and learning from the instructor, I had a Cayenne GTS drive up and fill up my mirrors and had to let him by. I gained a whole new respect for the Cayenne that day!
After, without the instructor in the car, I caught sight of that same Cayenne up ahead on the track and made it my sole mission in life to get around it just so I wouldn't have to tell people I was slower than a Cayenne.
I did it, but it wasn't trivial.
I've got video but I didn't have the audio turned on so it's rather long and boring.