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Old 03-20-2017, 09:52 PM   #31
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Upon reflection I can only conclude that my DE instructors had similar experiences




Is that the one who told you that you weren't caressing the car like a lover?
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:21 PM   #32
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hey, i caress every car like a lover and i was the most hideous green student ...
except maybe i was groping rather than caressing..
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:32 PM   #33
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hey, i caress every car like a lover and i was the most hideous green student ...
except maybe i was groping rather than caressing..

Payback
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:37 PM   #34
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thats what she said.....
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:52 AM   #35
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I'll always remember my very first track day instructor.
Same here. As I look back on the various ones I've had, I feel like I can pick out a few memorable moments from each weekend that helped shape my whole DE experience and made me a better driver going forward.

For my very first, I had Rod. We were on the Driver Development Track at Mosport, which is a sort of smaller beginner track with less walls than the big track so he seemed pretty cool about our newbie shenanigans. There were three of us out there that knew each other so chasing each other down for DE Champion was part of the fun. Until things may have got a little out of hand.

Rod told me to slow right down for a little while. I thought I was in trouble. To the contrary, he proceeded to give me a lesson on what to do and what not to do if (when?) we went off the track. Keep the wheels straight... don't try to swerve back on... brake in a straight line... etc.

Once he'd had his say, he let us have at it again and it was a ton of fun.

As a student, it was a great moment of establishing that there's nothing wrong with having fun out there so long as we put safety and responsibility first and foremost. We never did end up going off track, but who knows what might have happened if we didn't have that moment of clarity.

I look back on it fondly.

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Old 03-21-2017, 06:42 PM   #36
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Ever have a student like the one I had recently? Guy shows up in a 2016 Camaro with high-performance Michelins (he says he "wore through the last set" at a recent DE). Goes into great details about the "upgrades" to his "braking package" (new rotors and Pagid pads). He says he "wore through a set" at his last DE. Come to find out, it's his third DE. Race seats. Stock seat belts. Gold ball on the shift ****.

Progression goes something like this:
Saturday Warm Up: Here is the line, there are the flag stations, what to do if you drop a wheel, etc... He tells me he knows all that and he would prefer if I only talk when he does something wrong. He says he has soloed "with other groups" and just needs a refresher. We miss every apex at 1/3 speed. I can tell this is going to be a long weekend.

Sat Run1: Drive the line, be smooth. Needed to get his hands at 9 and 3. Needed to get the left arm down off the door. Needed to get the left foot off the clutch. Needed to get the right hand off the shifter. He tells me that's his "style." A line of cars is building up behind us. I tell him to look in his mirrors. He says "he'll get to it" but he's busy driving right now. He slams on brakes at the first braking marker. Cars scatter. He laughs. We miss every apex. He approaches a Miata and curses. No point-by is forthcoming. He passes anyway. We are black flagged. I tell him we need to go to the pits. He ignores me. The lap continues. We miss every apex. As we approach pit-in, I gently reach over and turn the steering wheel. "Don't ever do that again," he yells.

We have a debriefing at the Black Flag station. He tells me that the other drivers are too slow. I asked if he saw the line of cars behind him. He shrugs. I talk about the dynamics of a turn...the smooth braking, the gentle release, the progressive turn-in, the apex, the track out. He rolls his eyes. "Next time out," I tell him, "we'll work on getting smoother, watching our mirrors."

"That's not what my last instructor had me doing," he said. "He had me braking as late as possible. That's how to go fast!" I explained that that's why he's burning up his brakes. We need to concentrate on smoothness, I told him.

Sat Run2: We missed every apex. Missed two braking zones entirely and ran long into the runoff. Nearly broadsided another car in the braking zone. Smell the pads? "Yeah, they do that." Let's slow it down, work on smoothness. Get that left foot off the clutch. Get the arm down off the window. "It helps me be ready to give a point," he explains. No points are given. No points are even considered, as far as I can tell. We are black flagged again. The session expires. "You're not accepting instruction," I tell him. "I'm combining some of what you're telling me with some of my last instructor," he explains.

I skip lunch. Too upset.

Sat Run3: Have him drive and narrate what he is looking at and what he is trying to do. "This is stupid," he says. "My brakes feel soft," he adds. I can smell the fluid boiling. The pedal goes to the floor. We are through the braking zone and headed to the wall. I grab the wheel and pull hard, sending it into a slide. We don't hit anything. "Back to the pits," I motion.

The Black Flag station says, "You're very popular on the radio." The chief instructor has a semi-smile and a barely concealed air of concern.

"I had it until you pulled on the wheel," said the student. Silence.

I speak with the chief instructor in private, tell him I don't feel comfortable getting back in the car. He says he'll send out a "Senior Instructor" with the student in the next session (I AM a senior instructor) for a "check ride" to see if the guy will be allowed to continue.

I brief the "Senior Instructor" and off they go. Fifteen minutes later, I see the Camaro on a wrecker's hook getting dragged through the pits. The left side is caved in. "He didn't pass the check ride," the Senior Instructor informs me, shaking his head.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:54 PM   #37
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^^^
Wow! In 17 years of instructing, I have never had someone completely unresponsive like the person you described.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:03 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLNewman

I brief the "Senior Instructor" and off they go. Fifteen minutes later, I see the Camaro on a wrecker's hook getting dragged through the pits. The left side is caved in. "He didn't pass the check ride," the Senior Instructor informs mHQ4YWCe, shaking his head.
You have the patience of a Saint. Respect!
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:09 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Frank 993 C4S
You have the patience of a Saint. Respect!
X2

This is a go home situation for the driver
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:14 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Frank 993 C4S View Post
You have the patience of a Saint. Respect!
That kind of patience can get someone hurt.

After 1.5 sessions of Not Listening (vs. not understanding), he should have been parked.

My $0.02
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:29 PM   #41
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Thankful that there are very few of That Guy out there. Even more so that in 18 years of instructing I never had to ride with him.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:04 PM   #42
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That kind of patience can get someone hurt.

After 1.5 sessions of Not Listening (vs. not understanding), he should have been parked.

My $0.02
I would tend to agree. In my opinion, someone who is making so little effort to learn or follow instructions is a hazard to everyone on the track, and it's only a matter of time before something like that happens.

Too many clubs are afraid to send drivers home IMO. It's too much about the $$.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by PLNewman
Ever have a student like the one I had recently? Guy shows up in a 2016 Camaro with high-performance Michelins (he says he "wore through the last set" at a recent DE). Goes into great details about the "upgrades" to his "braking package" (new rotors and Pagid pads). He says he "wore through a set" at his last DE. Come to find out, it's his third DE. Race seats. Stock seat belts. Gold ball on the shift ****.

Progression goes something like this:
Saturday Warm Up: Here is the line, there are the flag stations, what to do if you drop a wheel, etc... He tells me he knows all that and he would prefer if I only talk when he does something wrong. He says he has soloed "with other groups" and just needs a refresher. We miss every apex at 1/3 speed. I can tell this is going to be a long weekend.

Sat Run1: Drive the line, be smooth. Needed to get his hands at 9 and 3. Needed to get the left arm down off the door. Needed to get the left foot off the clutch. Needed to get the right hand off the shifter. He tells me that's his "style." A line of cars is building up behind us. I tell him to look in his mirrors. He says "he'll get to it" but he's busy driving right now. He slams on brakes at the first braking marker. Cars scatter. He laughs. We miss every apex. He approaches a Miata and curses. No point-by is forthcoming. He passes anyway. We are black flagged. I tell him we need to go to the pits. He ignores me. The lap continues. We miss every apex. As we approach pit-in, I gently reach over and turn the steering wheel. "Don't ever do that again," he yells.

We have a debriefing at the Black Flag station. He tells me that the other drivers are too slow. I asked if he saw the line of cars behind him. He shrugs. I talk about the dynamics of a turn...the smooth braking, the gentle release, the progressive turn-in, the apex, the track out. He rolls his eyes. "Next time out," I tell him, "we'll work on getting smoother, watching our mirrors."

"That's not what my last instructor had me doing," he said. "He had me braking as late as possible. That's how to go fast!" I explained that that's why he's burning up his brakes. We need to concentrate on smoothness, I told him.

Sat Run2: We missed every apex. Missed two braking zones entirely and ran long into the runoff. Nearly broadsided another car in the braking zone. Smell the pads? "Yeah, they do that." Let's slow it down, work on smoothness. Get that left foot off the clutch. Get the arm down off the window. "It helps me be ready to give a point," he explains. No points are given. No points are even considered, as far as I can tell. We are black flagged again. The session expires. "You're not accepting instruction," I tell him. "I'm combining some of what you're telling me with some of my last instructor," he explains.

I skip lunch. Too upset.

Sat Run3: Have him drive and narrate what he is looking at and what he is trying to do. "This is stupid," he says. "My brakes feel soft," he adds. I can smell the fluid boiling. The pedal goes to the floor. We are through the braking zone and headed to the wall. I grab the wheel and pull hard, sending it into a slide. We don't hit anything. "Back to the pits," I motion.

The Black Flag station says, "You're very popular on the radio." The chief instructor has a semi-smile and a barely concealed air of concern.

"I had it until you pulled on the wheel," said the student. Silence.

I speak with the chief instructor in private, tell him I don't feel comfortable getting back in the car. He says he'll send out a "Senior Instructor" with the student in the next session (I AM a senior instructor) for a "check ride" to see if the guy will be allowed to continue.

I brief the "Senior Instructor" and off they go. Fifteen minutes later, I see the Camaro on a wrecker's hook getting dragged through the pits. The left side is caved in. "He didn't pass the check ride," the Senior Instructor informs me, shaking his head.
The student is clearly irresponsible.
Was hoping to hear that the instructor'd shown some responsibility.
That's what the organizers and other drivers rely upon.

Skipping lunch is a red flag.
Instructor, know thyself

But it's good to have a patient instructor. Or something. I guess. Not exactly my cuppa tea.
Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by RickyBobby; 03-23-2017 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 04:38 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Wild Weasel View Post
Same here. As I look back on the various ones I've had, I feel like I can pick out a few memorable moments from each weekend that helped shape my whole DE experience and made me a better driver going forward.

For my very first, I had Rod. We were on the Driver Development Track at Mosport, which is a sort of smaller beginner track with less walls than the big track so he seemed pretty cool about our newbie shenanigans. There were three of us out there that knew each other so chasing each other down for DE Champion was part of the fun. Until things may have got a little out of hand.

Rod told me to slow right down for a little while. I thought I was in trouble. To the contrary, he proceeded to give me a lesson on what to do and what not to do if (when?) we went off the track. Keep the wheels straight... don't try to swerve back on... brake in a straight line... etc.

Once he'd had his say, he let us have at it again and it was a ton of fun.

As a student, it was a great moment of establishing that there's nothing wrong with having fun out there so long as we put safety and responsibility first and foremost. We never did end up going off track, but who knows what might have happened if we didn't have that moment of clarity.

I look back on it fondly.

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=D05PWxlPgBw
Thought I was watching a chase scene from Lancelot Link.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by PLNewman View Post
Ever have a student like the one I had recently? Guy shows up in a 2016 Camaro with high-performance Michelins (he says he "wore through the last set" at a recent DE). Goes into great details about the "upgrades" to his "braking package" (new rotors and Pagid pads). He says he "wore through a set" at his last DE. Come to find out, it's his third DE. Race seats. Stock seat belts. Gold ball on the shift ****.

Progression goes something like this:
Saturday Warm Up: Here is the line, there are the flag stations, what to do if you drop a wheel, etc... He tells me he knows all that and he would prefer if I only talk when he does something wrong. He says he has soloed "with other groups" and just needs a refresher. We miss every apex at 1/3 speed. I can tell this is going to be a long weekend.

Sat Run1: Drive the line, be smooth. Needed to get his hands at 9 and 3. Needed to get the left arm down off the door. Needed to get the left foot off the clutch. Needed to get the right hand off the shifter. He tells me that's his "style." A line of cars is building up behind us. I tell him to look in his mirrors. He says "he'll get to it" but he's busy driving right now. He slams on brakes at the first braking marker. Cars scatter. He laughs. We miss every apex. He approaches a Miata and curses. No point-by is forthcoming. He passes anyway. We are black flagged. I tell him we need to go to the pits. He ignores me. The lap continues. We miss every apex. As we approach pit-in, I gently reach over and turn the steering wheel. "Don't ever do that again," he yells.

We have a debriefing at the Black Flag station. He tells me that the other drivers are too slow. I asked if he saw the line of cars behind him. He shrugs. I talk about the dynamics of a turn...the smooth braking, the gentle release, the progressive turn-in, the apex, the track out. He rolls his eyes. "Next time out," I tell him, "we'll work on getting smoother, watching our mirrors."

"That's not what my last instructor had me doing," he said. "He had me braking as late as possible. That's how to go fast!" I explained that that's why he's burning up his brakes. We need to concentrate on smoothness, I told him.

Sat Run2: We missed every apex. Missed two braking zones entirely and ran long into the runoff. Nearly broadsided another car in the braking zone. Smell the pads? "Yeah, they do that." Let's slow it down, work on smoothness. Get that left foot off the clutch. Get the arm down off the window. "It helps me be ready to give a point," he explains. No points are given. No points are even considered, as far as I can tell. We are black flagged again. The session expires. "You're not accepting instruction," I tell him. "I'm combining some of what you're telling me with some of my last instructor," he explains.

I skip lunch. Too upset.

Sat Run3: Have him drive and narrate what he is looking at and what he is trying to do. "This is stupid," he says. "My brakes feel soft," he adds. I can smell the fluid boiling. The pedal goes to the floor. We are through the braking zone and headed to the wall. I grab the wheel and pull hard, sending it into a slide. We don't hit anything. "Back to the pits," I motion.

The Black Flag station says, "You're very popular on the radio." The chief instructor has a semi-smile and a barely concealed air of concern.

"I had it until you pulled on the wheel," said the student. Silence.

I speak with the chief instructor in private, tell him I don't feel comfortable getting back in the car. He says he'll send out a "Senior Instructor" with the student in the next session (I AM a senior instructor) for a "check ride" to see if the guy will be allowed to continue.

I brief the "Senior Instructor" and off they go. Fifteen minutes later, I see the Camaro on a wrecker's hook getting dragged through the pits. The left side is caved in. "He didn't pass the check ride," the Senior Instructor informs me, shaking his head.
While you showed great patience, it might have been too much patience.

Instead of you skipping lunch, perhaps he should have been sent home before that point so you could eat your lunch knowing he won't be endangering you and others on the track in the afternoon. That way while his feelings might be hurt, he gets sent home to think about his action, doesn't endanger anyone else, doesn't crash his car or takes away precious track time from people who paid to be there.

We had a couple of guys like this (not in my group) at a Shelby Club trackday I went to a couple of years back. Both were sent home before lunch and all the participants were gathered with an explanation provided. My immediate reaction was "wow, sucks for those guys" but it quickly sunk in that they were doing this to protect everyone else out on the track from reckless behavior. It was firm but fair.

In contrast, I've ran with other clubs that seem to be ok giving tow trucks as much track time as participants...
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