Veloce Raptor

+1

SSDD

mark kibort

Look, here is the net net. you could be right. anytime you are in 2nd, its a quick upshft. for mike, its still about 2.5 seconds of a 60-80hp differential. probably shaving hairs, so ill leave it up to you and mike to figure out.
it would be interesting to see the data here for a real comparison

what you see below is the moment he hits WOT, at about 3000rpm and the moment on the track where he hits 4400rpm. if he was in 2nd, this is where he would shift to 3rd and be at 4400rpm.

sure, its only from 35mph to 52mph, but i try and optimize all 2 second intervals in my race car or all 15-20mph spreads. it all adds up.

sure, its a little jump for a little bit of time, but every little bit transfers to time.

thats it.

interesting topic. just one more thing to try.

EDIT! i forgot how long the gears were between 2nd and 3rd. 66% post shift or 1.51x the RPM of 3rd vs 2nd so, the RPM is much closer than i had originally estimated. so yes, it would be a tight shift, not much of a jump, but still a jump. again... you could be right, but i encourage a shot at it by Mike to see.

surlynkid

Mark has some valid points - some apply to Mike and some don't. Obviously VR knows Mike better than Mark, but sometimes we all need fresh eyes to critique us rather than the same folks we drive with every weekend. Mike will freely admit he is not a "drama" driver and has no desire to be. The seconds he loses to living in the drama of the edge will never be there, so those are not going be seconds he picks up. Mike is smooth and methodical and safe. He is having fun. He is a DE driver, not a TT guy or a racer. The dramatic edge you see on the whole group in Danny Steyn's video will never be what Mike wants. I think PoBoyR6 videos on YouTube show much more drama than even racing. He is a track record holder in TTB and is non-stop living in the drama on his hot laps. Mike just needs input on how to get there other ways.

The 2nd gear shifts make sense logically to not lug back into the power band, but the second hardest thing on the car at COTA after brakes is the 2nd gear downshifts. Very hard on the GT3RS with the lower gearing. Mike wants to bring his car home in one piece as the DE trophies and contingencies are very small. To do that, you have to give a little. I think VR and Mark will have to be more creative on how to get some extra time for Mike.

I say Mike just waits for cooler temps and gets a fresh set of sticker tires to get a few seconds.

TXE36

Surly knows me pretty well. Not 100%, but it is a fair summary.

Is it bad that I was at the track last weekend, and by today (Thursday), I'm jonesing to go back.

-Mike

Veloce Raptor

I can assure both of you with 100% certainty, having owned this car since April 1997 until February 2015, that going down to 2nd gear anywhere at COTA unless incredibly bogged down by traffic, would be less than optimal for several reasons, the least of which is mechanical wear and tear.

mark kibort

Upon looking at the gear ratios and the video again. I understand your position. makes sense. i think it would only pay for a shot at a hot lap time. the ultimate gear ratio is much lower than i though. (equal to my 1st gear about 8 to 8.5:1) and ive only used it a few times on turns like that for "traffic" or a hot lap. however, if he starts to twist the motor up to 7500, the story could change a little at the cost of even more "wear"

TXE36

My gut feeling agrees with this, I think I figured out why. Here is my PB from over two years ago in the street car:


Note how short 2nd gear is. If we compare the cars, my street car vs Dave's old car:

• Stock diff 3.23 vs 3.46
• Aluminum flywheel vs Aluminum flywheel (I think, don't know for sure)
• Same transmission
• Same stock engine internals
• Stock exhaust manifold vs Supersprint full headers
• Cat vs Cat delete
• Gutted and "glasspacked" stock muffer vs Supersprint Cat back
• Both have the M50 intake
• Stock tune vs 7000 RPM RL tune, large MAF, likely large injectors
• Bolt in roll bar vs welded in cage
• Same seats and harnesses
• 3300lbs+ vs 2900lbs
• Same Koesi K1 wheels
• Same size tires
• Bridestone RE11A vs Nitto NT-01 tires
• PSS9 suspension vs full Motons

All of the differences make the track car quicker than the street car before one even considers the rear end ratio. The 3.46 diff takes it over the top. In fact, I wouldn't want a 3.46 diff in a street car as it would be just too freaking loud. Generally speaking, when one puts a 3.46 in a street E36, they also put in the six speed tranny to calm down the highway cruising RPM. Thus, the most common diff mod to a dual purpose car is the diff out of the automatic at 3.38. It's all documented here.

I'd rather add a bit of "drama" and get the hairpin corner speeds up a bit than dick around with 2nd gear.

-Mike

PS Man Surly, has it been that long since you've had the GT3 on the track? I believe that is your yellow GT3 in the March 2014 video.

TXE36

You can only twist a S52 up to 7500 RPM once.

Again: Not. The. Euro. Motor.

-Mike

Veloce Raptor

Seriously. WTF???

Thundermoose

Mike - I thought surlyn' s assessment was pretty accurate based on your videos. Clearly he can't read your mind but you appear to be driving 8/10ths in most of your videos. Not that it's a bad thing but the consistent feedback that you receive is to coast less and to be more aggressive on brakes and gas. There's easy time for you just to dial it up to 9 or even 10 Tenths. But as surlyn mentions, I am not convinced that you want to be a 10/10ths driver. And in the world of HPDE there is no good reason to drive at the limit.

My advice is to just keep on doing what you're doing and have fun. and keep on instructing - folks need teachers like you.

Btw it's surlyn kid. Apparently it's some kind of chemical product.

TXE36

I'm pretty sure if you wind up a S52 to 7500 RPM it will float a valve, have a valve to piston strike, and then cablamo. I saw earlier references to the Euro motor, Mark has been confused about this before. The Euro S50 motor as well as the S54 have solid lifters and can run to 8000 RPM.

At over 7000 RPM, Scotty down in the engine room starts complaining mighty fiercely.

-Mike

TXE36

HA! I did not know that. I know when he gets in a bad mood or has to fix SL's Miata, again, he can get a bit Surly

Oh Good Lord:
Surlyn® Ionomer Resin

Maybe he takes his job too seriously.

-Mike

mark kibort

And i thought we finally found peace and agreement. ha ha
remember, perspective. ill think more about where you are coming from and visa versa.

example: The new and improved VR might say, "you cant twist my motor up to 7500rpm but once , unless you are talking about changing out the retaining clips and putting in solid lifters, its not going to happen!"

so, since my performance experience was working on the S50 3.2.
I think there might be an additional limit of the S52 due to the valve train retainers/ solid lifter at high RPM. I forgot if the bottom end had any differences as far as bore and stroke vs the S50 of the same displacement.

This stock bottom end motor S50 3.2 was twisted regularly up to near 7.8krpm all day long! stroke both 91mm ITB's and solid lifter was key for the 290 rwhp and high rpm suitability.
3seasons, 12 hour enduro and that's after i was shipped from Europe!!
but to get that kind of performance , you need the euro motor.
change the lifters to solid, tweek the ECU and you are up to 7500rpm , and shifting to 2nd!

surlynkid

Mike,

Yes, I had just gotten the car about 3 months before that video and was still figuring it out versus E92 M3. The cam adjusters failed a year later at COTA in March 2015. Still waiting to get it back. Most people don't believe I even own it anymore.

Yes, Surlyn. At the inception of everybody making screen names, I scaled up R&D grades of Surlyn on the commercial unit. Only surly when I have to actually crawl inside Miata and do wiring or pedal adjustments and such under the dash. Rest of the car is easy to fix.

SierraLima will be quicker and will still want to be a rabbit. That'll shave some time for you. You caught her at MSRH but she just shaved 0.7 sec off her PB.

mark kibort

yes, I get it about the "drama" of that one turn at COTA. however, don't over sell that 3.46 rear end. its only 6% different. you had more difference in speed in the two shots I had of you around the same turn! (40 vs 35mph.)
and yes, at highway speeds, you would have a little more noise if you are cruising at 2500rpm and now the RPM is 2650rpm... but is that really a difference worth noting? the main thing that a 3.46 will do is change your shift points and possibly allow you to take one straight to redline vs not quite getting there with the 3.23.

yes, if you don't have solid lifters and some stiffer valve springs, that certainly can happen. if you do, it still might not be worth it, as this WOULD be an example of what Dave refers to (the engine making noise up top) . if the intake wasn't changed , this could be the case. really low HP values past 7000rpm and with your flat HP curve, it wouldn't pay to shift any higher than what you do now, and marginally better at 7000rpm, and might not be worth the wear and tear. (example 7000 shift from 2nd to 3rd gives you 4650rpm which is just outside the beginning of the max HP range) vs 4290 with current shift point of 6500rpm. you can see the diff of the HP at those two points and see if its worth it. probably not.
I'm not confused about the S50 euro vs US nor with the S52 US. I was just making a point that launching out of those turns with 60-80hp might have some benefit.. after all , you were trying to find some time and that was one idea I had. certainly might not be worth it , at least as a habit.

have fun. enjoy the ride... get more aggressive on the S's and the carousel by taking the car a little harder to the edge (you will feel it) and shaving 2-3 seconds off your lap should be more than achievable. Grab the wheel with both hands firm... no more palming . get in race mode!!

edit: just did a quick calculation base on the stock e36 S52 curve I found. looks like you are better off shifting at 6500rpm (stock redline) than running to 7000RPM even if you could. the car just doesn't breath any higher due to the restrictive intake. ave hp is 186 (6500, 5400 4300 HP) vs 183 average hp for shifting at 7000 estimating that HP at 7000 would probably be 175. so that average would be 183hp. 3 hp lower..........so, you are doing the best the engine
for the 2-3gear shift. 3-4th same story... Put on the ITBs and stiffer springs, and the engine changes personality!